Was there a "Gap"?
John Hext-Fremlin wrote:
(From Gaines Johnson. www.kjbbible.org)
|Creation to the Romans|
|Were there Cave Men in Historic times?|
|The Last British Neanderthals?|
|Catastrophism and Cave Men|
Subject : Re: Post flood ice age and Gunnar Heinsohn.
At 04:04 PM 03/20/2005 +0000, you wrote:
Dear Larry many thanks of the phone discussion of a few hours ago; I
found it most stimulating and indeed most fascinating and interesting.
However here is the rather lengthy email I sent to Mr. Ian Lawton author of
"Genesis Unveiled". He is however a "Velekovskian evolutionist" and I know
the tone of my first email to him was rather abrupt. But I found that in
the introduction to his book there was a very sharp attack on young earth
creationists who hold to the date of 4004 BC for creation so naturally
enough I responded accordingly as you will see below. I have since then
received another email from him which is perhaps a little bit more
reconciliatory which I will also send to you after this one today (Sunday).
Here's what he has to say. John.
From: "Ian Lawton" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
To: "John Hext-Fremlin" <email@example.com>
Subject: Re: Post flood ice age and Gunnar Heinsohn.
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2005 20:32:55 -0000
Dear Mr. Hext-Fremlin
I tend to find that people who are comfortable with their beliefs do not try
to ram them down other people's throats. They are also somewhat more patient
in waiting for an answer from someone who is clearly sufficiently busy that
responding to such arrant nonsense is not a major priority. BTW, I am
intrigued to know exactly what sort of response you thought you were going
to get. Did you expect me to change my views just because you throw a
ridiculous chronology at me? Have you ever heard of rational debate? Do you
really think that 'God' put the fossils of dinosaurs on earth to test us?
I have given you the respect of a response, but please do not contact me
again unless a) you have calmed down and b) you have got something useful to
Regards, Ian Lawton
----- Original Message ----- From: "John Hext-Fremlin"
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 3:20 PM
Subject: Post flood ice age and Gunnar Heinsohn.
Dear Sir I have purchased your book "Genesis unveiled" . First let me
tell you that I do not like your criticism of young earth creationists and
that what you propose is utterly absurd and I do know from your own
admission that you are a uniformitarian evolutionist with the greatest
respect > I do happen to be a follower of Bishop Ussher and agree with his
date of 4004 BC for creation and the flood 1656 later in 2348 BC followed by
the post flood ice age (and there was only one ice age on the creation model)
in 2242 BC at the time of the dispersion from Babel. Gunnar Heinsohn's time
line for ancient Europe is as follows: Homo erectus 2000 BC; Neanderthal 1500
BC ;Cro-Magnon 1400 BC ; the bronze age 900 BC and the iron age 600 BC . If
you would care to look at my website which is www.johnhextfremlin.com you
will find some creation history pages that date Parthelon contemporary with
the formorians (the last Neanderthals in Europe) arrive annomundi 2520 or
1484 BC ; Brutus first king of the ancient Britons 1104 BC (Bronze
industry) on Britain and am 2859 or 1145 BC the nemedians with the bronze age
on Ireland and the Milisians arrive in 3500 AM or 504 BC with the pre-Roman
iron age or iron (A) 220 BC the Latene Celts with iron (B) and the Picts
arrive in Scotland in 100 BC or 3904 annomundi for our purposes here. Now
you can ignore this if you like ; but there are people out there like
Professor Gunnar Heinsohn a more radical scholar than Velekovskey whom I
am also a follower of coincidentally and insists that ancient chronologies
should be reduced even more and so do
Spiritual Notes on Gap Theories by David Hume
John,One of the major problem with Modern Dispensational Scenarios, are that whenever they deal with divine fixed time periods in the scripture they put in gaps of indefinite lengths to support their views.The Lord knows how long a year is , after all he gave us the cosmos to reconcile the lengths of days, nights and seasons.During my journey with Christ , I was exposed to erroneous dispensational Gap theories, that twist isolated verses from their context to support a particular view.It kept bothering me because when one tries to determine the length of a mythical gap, everything becomes speculative. The history of men proclaiming the exact date of Christ's return in the 20th century reveals how fraught with error the gap theories are. I wasted a lot of time chasing this myth and when I discovered , I had been duped from the pulpit I abandoned those views.The starting point was when I accepted Mathew Henry's Christ centered view of the seventy weeks of Daniel. That all had to do with Christ and not some mythical Anti-Christ.Having been involved developing software for mainframe computers , the modern theories of the mark of the beast and the revived Roman Empire appealed to me at one time.I downloaded a online bible (onlinebible.net) , and with it came a work by Phillip Mauro "The seventy weeks of Daniel and the great tribulation". At first I was aprehensive about reading it , because I surmised it was just another Gap theorist making some more wild guesses. Eventually I decided to take a peek , and to my suprise it was exactly the opposite. Since then I totally abandoned 360 day lunar years and wrote a treatise upon the seventy weeks. When I circulated it , some one accused me of being a preterist , not knowing what the term meant, I searched the web for the meaning and found Tod Dennis's preteristarchive.com.This began a new learning curve, because now I take cognisance of the audience and the setting when reading the gospels. Instead of shifting it millenia into the future and applying it to the modern generation, I began to apply it to the generation in Christ's presence at the time.One cannot take the Apostle John's Revelation (the source of so many modern erroneous views ) and shift the understanding of it away from the knowledge of the Infant Church in the Roman Province of Asia in the first century AD. To my mind it was written prior to the destruction wrought by the Romans (Ad66-73) when the temple was still standing.Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein. But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.Finnis Jennings Dakes was the modern father of the Creation Gap and primeaval flood theory and also the Pre-Adamic race theory. Between him , Clarence Larkin (Dispensational Truth) and Scofield they have led the modern generation astray. I term it a American Pentecostal Delusion, which perverts the gospel into modern materialism. I have abandoned them having once been under their hypnotic repetitive phraseology form of self hypnosis.Revelation 12:1 ∂ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars(Joseph's Dream of Jacob's Family): And she being with child (Christ) cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon (Edom -Herod), having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads(Under Roman Empire Authority). And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven( Abrahams Seed-the four claimants to the royal birthright (Joseph (Manasseh-Ephraim) Benjamin(Saul) and Judah), and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child(Christ), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.Matthew 2:18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children(Joseph-Benjamin), and would not be comforted, because they are not.1 Chronicles 5:1 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his fatherís bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright. For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Josephís:)Herod the Great was a descendant of Antipater an Idumean(the descendants of the hated Esau who sold his birthright for a mess of pottage). They obtained the Throne and the sceptre departed from the Kings of Judah(the Royal Seed-lineage of Christ), with the permision of the Conglomerate Beast composed of the territories the preceeding Egyptian,Babylonian, Medo Persian, Greek(Empires). Each swallowing up the other in order until the four beasts of Daniel became one composite beast. The body parts of each making up the beast of Revelation. Herod tried to exterminate any claim to his throne, The infant Jesus was spared by his parents fleeing Herod's intentions.Revelation 12:6 And the woman(Infant Church circ Ad66) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.The Gap theorist's shift this casting down all the way back to the Genesis Creation Account , by isolating a single verse from the context. This event occured at the destruction of Jerusalem, when the daily sacrifice and the levitical Priesthood was abolished. It marks the end of the Mosaic Covenant and its curse being fulfilled, and The New Covenant (New World-New Creation) taking its place.
(296) So these publicly declared that the signal predicted the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisios [Iyyar], (Niese: June 8, Capellus: May 21) (297) a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those who saw it, (298) and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen (299) running about among the clouds, and surrounding the cities.
Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour.
Isaiah 66:14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.∂ For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
From Isaiah and these Historians we have the record of what happened in the Heavens at the time.(Ad 66-70) of Christís return in Judgement. The war was on two fronts one in the Heavens visible to all in the Promised Land, the other on the earth with the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem.
Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him(those who rejected Christ for Caesar): and all kindreds of the earth(Palestine) shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
John 19:15 But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar (The Human God).
So John without an understanding of Covenant Theology , the Gap theorists only bring confusion. Preterists (Past Fulfillment) are much maligned by Futurists , as though we are attempting to remove their hope in Christ rapturing them before the proverbial "shit hits the fan". But what they fail to see is the Hope of a Better Resurrection when we depart from the this earthly tabernacle we are now clothed in.
On the subject of the Six day's , I am not totally convinced that they are 24 hour Days, because of the following verse :
Genesis1:14 ∂ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.Up until this verse the preceeding verses have no means of measuring a fixed 24 hour Day, because the Sun and Moon were not in existence yet.
Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.Are they Cosmic Days of immeasurable Length , I dont know? There is a case that the length is determined by the Solar Day, and The Lunar Night and applies to what preceeds it. Also certain types of plant life are seasonal and the period from germination to appearance can be longer than a twenty four hour day. Gestation Periods also effect this , and one has to remain rational when expounding scripture.Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.Genesis 5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.Literal days in the Genesis Account are subject to interpretation , as in the case of Adam who lived longer than a twenty four hour day.Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.To me the first resurrection is a metaphor for Christ, and the thousand years defines the length of our Day in Glory, and we shall live forever , longer than Adam ever did.2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.So to harmonise the day's to a literal twenty four hours , seems to me to be placing on a limit on the timeframes of the Genesis account. One can take divine inspiration to an extreme that was never intended and turn scripture into myth. Every living thing on this planet is in a symbiotic relationship with each other, this alone is enough to prove omniscient intelligent design and the validity of the Genesis Account. The fact that man is the last to arrive , when a smorgasboard is already there to sustain him supports the scriptures claim.I may have written more than I intended , but it reveals my mindset to you which is the result of a Spritual conversion in 1981 and the varied experiences with The Lord Jesus Christ since then.I would like to send you two documents I wrote , one on Daniels Seventy weeks , the other on the resurrection if you would like me to.Yours in ChristDave
On 12 February 2011 02:07, john hext-fremlin <firstname.lastname@example.org> wrote:
Were Dinosaurs extinct before Adam?
Hi Damien using the Morrow/Ansty Chronology which for my purposes I'd
translate to Ussherian chronology; Do you think the Dinosaurs became
extinct prior to the six literal 24 hour days of "Recreation" before
Thus do you believe they the dinosaurs became extinct in the supposed
Genesis Gap Theory of Genesis one verse one and one verse Two; or did
they become extinct (which I believe) was the world wide event of the
In conclusion it begs the question :- "If Noah's Flood did not
exterminate all life on earth; then what would Lucifer's Flood have
Sorry, I can't help you, John.
I know nothing about - don't believe in - any "Recreation" (except the spiritual rebirth that Jesus Christ earned for us).
I know nothing about - don't believe in - any Genesis Gap.
I know nothing about - don't believe in - any Lucifer's Flood.