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Was there a Gap? The Flood Division in the days of Peleg 2247 BC     Chronology of    Neolithic  Man Timeline for Britain and Ireland from the Flood Creation to the Romans


             chronology of  Neolithic Man part 2 (click here for part one)

Introduction to part 2

This Author is publishing an Updated Industries Chart from the
Ammendments that are available. The History is that of Britain Ireland
Scandenavia Germany and Bible Lands from Creation to the Romans and is
based on the information from Herman L Hoe (Compendium of World
History with Research done by Darrell White and Myself with a starting
date for Creation set at year Zero or 4004 BC and the Chronology is
from Ussher and the Ancient Chroniclers

Please Note All references are from Introduction to this chapter with

 particular reference to Compendium of World History and Herman L Hoe .

 I would also like to thank Darrell for his most interesting help in

the updated information for this Table

Year Zero  Creation of Universe in six literal Days  Adam and Eve

.....................................4004 BC

Annomundi 1656 or 2348

 BC.....................................................Great Flood of


Duration of Flood

 ..........................................................one Year and

lasts till 2347 BC...... All knowledge of Metal Working is carried

through the flood up till time of despersion from Babel when some

technology was lost...................................................2347

 BC ....... Start of Ice Age according to Mike Oard and Noah and sons

 step off the arc at this date of 2347 BC and Noah plants a Vinyard

Thus 2347 BC..................Neolithic/Bronze /Iron and Steel ndustries

 2295 BC to 2254 BC.....................................World Survey

Teams Mine for Metals............ and make stone tools to aid them in

 their search in mining for metals........................................2254 BC Cush goes to Kingdom..................

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2252 BC...... Gadir Son of Sidon builds port in Spain and mine for tin

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copper and Bronze in Cornwall Southern Britain and check it out with

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Survey Monoliths which is a land mark for the devision of the earth

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the port is built for trade between Spain and Britain at this date

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right through to the despersion in 2191 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2250 BC Cichol Bourne to Sidon of the Caananites at this date. Survey

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teams return to Ireland 2248 BC to show Cichol his fishing

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grounds................................2247 BC.......... Ice age Ice

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Plannet catastrophe at this date (My date for startof Ice Age and the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> begginnings of early stone age (Palaeolithic technology) at thistime

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...............earth devided and Madai finds his land covered in Ice

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and probably relys on others to provide him with metal tools and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely has no knowledge of how to make these tools

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>DW Pattern  .............On his chronology sugests Flood and Ice "Epoch" were simultaneouse

> Dated by Pattern at 2800 BC which on our timeline would be 2348 BC.

> This would make Ice Age duration 857yrs in stead of the proposed 856

> yrs by Darrell and myself (This could make good sense) if some

> mammoths were quick frozen before the flood save the ones that boarded

> the arc and these ones on the arc that disembarked in 2347 BC would

> have become extinct by 1491 BC by a firey commet impact (The Biblical

> Flood and the "Ice Epoch" by Donald Wesley Pattern

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Probable tools from Swanscombe might match this early time

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2225 BC Cichol Gricenchos bourne 2250 BC and becomes mature leader of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Formorei Neanderthal sp Groups and colonize Northern Scotlandand

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at this time

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2192 BC..............................Neolithic and Copper industries

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to Germany under Tuich (Shem) make their HQ at Kolne/Deutz........My

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> research reveals that Ootzy the Ice man also probably lived at this

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ice Age Duration Mike Oard severn Hundred Years (2191 BC to 1491 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =700 yrs precisely from Babel to Exodus adding 56 years to 2247 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> =756 Years plus another Hundred to 2347 BC for Mike Oard's concept =

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Total Duration of Ice age therefore 856 Years

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2189 BC.............................Scara Brae is built by Cichol

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gricenchos as a base for opperations between Scotland Ireland and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scandenavia

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2234 BC ...............................Founding of Babel (Early Bronze) Tower takes 43 years to Build.............

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2191 BC ............................Despersion from Babel with

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confusion of languages and loss of some metal technology at this time

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while others keep it and other people groups are plunged into stone

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> age technology.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2189/2188 BC.............................Egypt founded by Menes..................


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Misraem) Early Bronze and is contemporay with the founding of Skara

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brae by Hunter gatherers in Scotland (Orkney) Palaeolithic industries.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some artifacts and a Neanderthal scull have been found in Norfolk

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which sugests these industries belonged to Cichol's Neanderthal sp

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> groups.............The evidense sugests that in Scotland Some

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neolithic industries were achieved by the Neanderthals

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2189/2188 BC Menes (Misraem) had seven sons and built seven city states, five in Egypt and two in Libya and in the war of unification 27 years after the founding of Egypt some of the cities were destroyed and ended with ownly four left. One of the W and E Delta Regions what is North African Desert appears to have been lush at the time. A Great Lake existed in North Africa and Libya and was a good Fertile Area.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Early Bronze 2188 to 1500 BC...........................................

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MB1................................1500 BC to 1055 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MB2.................................................1055 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MB1 ...... Israel................1445 BC- 1081 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MB2.......Israel.................1081 BC - 722 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MB2......Judah..................1081 BC-586 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Late Iron....Israel..............722 BC-539 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Iron..................................,,539 BC to 300 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Samothes Coloney (Palaeolithic Hunter gatherers arrive Britain from France.............ca 2135 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Samothes dies 2088 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Albion (Son of Sidon arives Southern England with more Huntergatherers

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and makes himself King  2082 BC and rules 44 yrs to 2038 BC (Mammoths

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are hunted during this period and lots of fishing)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Magus is made king in 2038 BC with begginnings of Aggriculture or

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neolithic industries. Stonehenge often times dated by conventional

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dating to arround 3000 BC matches Ussherian timeline of 2038 BC.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bergion in Ireland 2082 to 2038

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BC..............................................Herculese (Nimrod.s

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> General) slayes giants in 2038 BC and an army of celts helps him

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nimrod introduces Neolithic industries world wide arround 2094 BC and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dies 2068 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cichol's men in Scandenavia  and Scotland arroud 2225 BC to 2129 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Skara Brae  (2189 BC) is a base for opperations between Orkney and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scandenavia

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2038 BC is 310 yrs from the flood when Neolithic civilization was

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reintroduced into England by Magus.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> THE Goths under King Eric colonize Partsof Scandenavia in 2129 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Neolithic Industries) 62 yrs after the despersion from Babel

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The building of the city of Trier Triia founded by Trebetta the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian in 2079 BC (Neolithic/Copper Industries) 2000 yrs before

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Caesar (Caesar bourne 79 BC.........................................

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AN ALTERNATIVE History says it was colonised by the Germans

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Assyrians) 1300 yrs before Rome was built. Rome founded 753 BC making

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the founding of Trier on this date 2053 BC (1300 Rounded figure.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Partholan arrives Ireland and colonises it in 2035 BC with Neolithic farmers

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Battle of Magithe with Giants under Cichol Gricenchos (10 yrs Later )

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ................2025 BC......

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cichol in Scotland 200 yrs before Battle in 2225 BC. Period of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dominion begins in Ireland 2024 BC till 1755 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Birth of Abraham annomundi 2008...............1996 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ice Age start (according to Mike Oard) 2347 BC 100yrs to devision of earth=2247 BC Ice catastrophe (My date for Ice age with ice plannet strike to  exodus) =700 2191 to exodus 1491 BC=700 yrs + 100 +56Yrs =856 yrs in total for ice age to meltdown at the time of Exodus in 1491 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Britain Mail (Late Neolithic)..........colonizes Scotland 1755 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Stonehenge maybe dated 2038 to 1996 BC time of Abraham (Early Neolithic Period)

>>>>>>>>>>>> Herculese fights battle with Albion and his brothers in France 2038 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>> 1755 BC untill 1725 BC Plague in Ireland at this time and uninhabbited

>>>>>>>>>>>> 1725 BC...........................Nemed comes to Ireland (Late

>>>>>>>>>>>> Neolithic industries)

>>>>>>>>>>>>Time of Abraham 1996 BC to 1821 BC

>>>>>>>>>>> Maybe sons of Sidon helped in the building of Stonehenge as they had

>>>>>>>>>>> knowledge in Astronomy and in Navigation.

>>>>>>>>>>>  Nemed rules from 1725 BC to 1508

>>>>>>>>>>> BC.................................................

>>>>>>>>>>> 1508 BC...........................Battles with Formores

>>>>>>>>>>> 1504 BC........Last of three Battles and Ireland without a King for

>>>>>>>>>>> 200 yrs a wildeness or wasteland

>>>>>>>>>>> 1354 BC Longstrife (Battles with Formorians)

>>>>>>>>>>> 1304 BC  After 200 years Firbolgues (Early Bronze) rule Ireland for 37 Years

>>>>>>>>>>> 1267 BC Firbolgues battle with Twarthy dedannan (Long strife).......

>>>>>>>>>>> 1240 BC Firbolgue power eliminated and Twarthy dedannan rule  for 197 years

>>>>>>>>>>  1043 BC Sons of Miles  ....(Milesians) arrive and expell the Twarthy

>>>>>>>>>> de Dannan from power (12th year of David) (MB2 stimulated by Soloman)

>>>>>>>>>>>1491 BC.................Exodus from Egypt and Ice Age Glaciers melt down (Remains of Prehistoric animals Mammoth wooly Rhino &c found in the North Sea

>>>>>>>>>> 1460 BC..(Approx).........................Eber Scot goes to Ireland..........some EB1 implements found during this period though not enough for Transition and explores Ireland........An alternative date might be 1443 BC for Eber Scott but am advised that 1460 BC (Rounded) is the best one to use. Eber's decendendents Miles of the Milesians colonised Ireland approximately 400 yrs later in 1043 BC . By this time Britain and Ireland are sepperated from the continent and Britain becomes the "Honey Islands"

>>>>>>>> 1421 BC............Lower Limmit 1365 BC....................Hu Gadarn

>>>>>>>> (Early Bronze ) colonises England. South England a wasteland and

>>>>>>>> brings Bronze industry after Ice age meltdown at Exodus 1491 BC

>>>>>>>> 1152 BC Brutus arrives in Totness..........and expells giants and remennant of cannanites Mix of eb1 and mb1  ALTERATION: This date is now revised to 1118 BC as the date of the Trojan war is 1184 BC

>>>>>>>>>1365 BC-1421 BC..................Stonehenge is probably rebuilt at this time....................Flint arrow heads and Mycenian Dagger also found at Stone Henge

>>>>>>> .....

>>>>>>> Geoffry of Monmouth is of oppinion that it was built by Merlin in

>>>>>>> Arthur's time in 6th century AD

>>>>>>>>722 BC...................Late Bronze...............

>>>>>>> 585 BC..............................Line of British Kings comes to an

>>>>>>> end in the line of Brutus

>>>>>>> 546 BC to 549 BC................Morindus King of Britain (Iron A)

>>>>>>> 330 BC to 300 BC..............The Latene Celts in Britain (Iron B)

>>>>>>>  55 BC to 54 BC..............Two Roman invasions by Julius Caesar

>>>>>>> AD 43..............................The Romans conquer Britain under Claudius

>>>>>>> AD 410......................The Romans leave Britain as the empire is

>>>>>>> threatened by the Goths Vandals and Huns and the legions are called

>>>>>>> back to Rome before Rome is sacked. The Picts were a serious problem

>>>>>>> for the Romans throughout the period of occupation. Britan was now

>>>>>>> being threatened by Angles Saxons and Jutes

>>>>>>> Ardna one of Nimrod's tribe goes to Ireland in 2208 BC fetches soil

>>>>>>> sample and returns to Babylon


>>>>>>Windmill Hill carbon dated to 3000 BC is a match for 2038 BC on Ussherian chronology

>>>>> 2300 BC................1700 BC Northsea remained fairly shallow at this time

>>>>> ......When Gaedel passed that way to Portuagal in 1481 BC the North

>>>>> Sea was near it's high water mark and the Goths are recorded as having

>>>>> built seven cities in the Norway Sweeden Region

>>>>>Revision .........................World Survey Teams and Surveys       ......................2295 BC through to 2265 BC................................Through 2254 BC ...................2252 and 2247 BC (Final Devision)

>>>> 2347 BC.................................,,2189/2188 BC............This

>>>> is the so called Predynastic period before Egypt colonised by Menes

>>>> (Early Bronze). Prior to this time 2347 to 2189/2188 BC (Neolithic

>>>> Bronze/Iron and Steel Industries..)

>>>> 1996 BC to 1821 BC This is the Time of Abraham and Rule of Celts from

>>>> France   This Date is also a lower limmit set for Stone Henge and the

>>>> reason why it was built was as a monument to Ice Plannet strike in

>>>> 2247 BC   Thus if Radio carbon dates are any thing to go by then 3000

>>>> BC =2038 BC for Upper limmit  and sugest it's builder was Magus and

>>>> maybe the same for Durrington Walls

>>>> The Sarronides  1987 BC to 1907 BC (Ancestors of Sacrificing Priests)

>>>> may have had hand in building Stone Henge

>>>> And with particular reffrence to Druis Founder of the Druids ca 1907

>>>> BC...............................................................

>>>>Clash of Titans.................................Herculese Nimrod's General slays giants ; Albion. Bergion; Lestrigo and defeats them in Northern France . The Celts fight with Herculese...............2038 BC and Magus is made King.

>>>Second Clash of Titans.Cush the Son of Ham fathered the Cuthites. Cush appears to have colonised Western Indiaand occasionally rebelling  against the empire of Nimrod.


>> There is probably a record that sugests that he rebelled against Semiramis 1.

>> After Ninyas her son died in 1968 BC. Zorocaster led a rebbellion in

>> which his troops soon captured Elam and possibly regions of Madai and

>> shortly later he captured the Shinar Valley Then Next to reign

>> (Capital now in Elam was Chedolamer who attempted to attack the West

>> with his allies He took the cities which is today near the Dead Sea

>> and it appears he attacked Egypt and was not victorius. If he had

>> taken Egypt he would  have come in line to replace the former World

>> Government


>>Kings of the "Stone Age" King List


>2225 BC..................Cichol Gricenchos (Bourne 2250 BC) Orkney in Scotland till Battle of Magithe 2025  BC

2172 BC ....................Founding of coloney in

France.................Samothes arrives Palaeolithic industries

2135 BC..................After 37 yrs Samothes arrives in Southern

England rules for 47 yrs and dies in 2088


2082 BC Albion (More Palaeolithic Hunter Gathers and sons of Sidon)

arrive and rules for 44 yrs

2038 BC Magus (Neolithic industries) and courses towns and villages

etc to be built rules 51 yrs till 1987 BC..............

1987 BC...........Saron who gave his name to the Saronides and

ancestof sacrificing priests rules 61 yrs

1926 BC....... Druis (Founder of the Druids) rules 14


1912 BC  ..............Bardus is made King (Founder of the

Bards)............................rules 75 yrs...........

1837 BC................Longho.................28 yrs

1809 BC.................Bardus the second...................37


1772 BC.............Lucus Protector.........11 yrs......................

1761 BC............Celtes who gave his name to the celts rules 13

years to .............1748 BC

1755 BC Britain Mael (Diffrent king linage rules in Scotland in the

North) thus overlapping to the later rule of Celtes

Additional note.,,,,,,, Celtes would be just abit before the famine of

Joseph in 1708 BC which Darrell believes was coursed by Ice age


Ice Age max approx 1800 BC


2348 BC to 2347 BC great

>>> Flood

> 2347 BC.........flood ends at this date Noah and sons step off arc and

> Noah plants a vinyard which is the begging of the Neolithic /Bronze

> /Iron and steel industries......................Predynastic of Egypt

> before 2188 BC and all metals are carried through from creation and

> Babel where there was eventually loss of technology after 2191 BC by

> some people groups while others retained them

> 2295 BC through to 2254 BC.........2252 BC World survey teems make

> stone tools to aid them in their search for metals through

> ............................................2247 BC (Final devision)

> to 2191 BC

> 2189/2188 BC Misraem founds Egypt...................Early

> Bronze.................................


: Founding of Babel (Start of

>>>> Tower) (Early Bronze am

>>>> 1770...............................................2234 BC and

>>>> takes 43 years to build

>> Despersion from Babel (possible Ice


BC.............................Early Bronze...................2188 BC.....to 1500 BC MB1..........................................1500

BC.................................1055 BC



MB1..............Israel..................1445 BC

................................1081 BC


BC................................722 BC


BC................................586 BC


 BC...............to 539 BC

 Late Iron..........................Israel...................539 BC

 ...........to 300 BC


Comments on Industries Chart from DW

I had time this morning to review your web site.  I looked at the Combined Table: B, I, ME and Bible Lands + the timeline listed at the end - after the heading Conculsion to History Paper.
Some comments as follows:
In Combined Table: B, I, ME, & Bible Lands
1) 1480 BC - you mention Gaytholos and Scotta go to Ireland.  It would be better to say "sail by Ireland and arrive in Portugal (Port-of-Gael or Port-of-Gaytholos)."  Some of the ancient chroniclers suggest that Gaytholos never actually made that trip, but their testimonies seem to lack credibility, so I am sticking with the traditional view until further evidence shows up.
2) 1116 BC - Brutus in Britain.  In the timeline at the end of the paper you use 1152 BC.  I think it would be appropriate to change it to 1152 BC here also.
In you paper just before the timeline at the end.
1) You state: Chapt !2  should be Chapt 12
2) In chapter 12 you mention the giants which Brutus saw and identify them as remnent of Hu.  I think it would be better to suggest "remnent of Albion", which, if I remember correctly was implied by the original text; which makes them of the race of Poesideon.  Besides, we have no evidence that Hu's colony consisted of any gaints.
In the timeline at the bottom, I would suggest the following:
1) 2253 BC comes before 2260 BC in the list - since the survey came before the division of lands, I think it is important to list it first.  I would use 2252 BC rather than 2253 BC.
2) 1421 BC - Hu Gardan and then 1152 BC Brutus are listed about four entries lower than is chronologically proper.  It confused me for a while.  I think keeping things in chronological order is best when ever possible.
3) 1043 BC  MB2 - you mention (Solomon).  Solomon was 1115 BC to 975 BC and thus does not fit quite correctly here.
Quite an accomplishment.  I think the picture is much more complete than when you started and seems to fit together well.  You have a knack for asking interesting and relevent questions.
Do not be surprised if lots of people feel it isn't possible to make reasonable estimates for the dates of these events.  They are unaware of the breakthoughs which have occurred by using the durations given by the ancient chronicler to form a full confirmation of Usshers Biblical Chronology from non-Scriptural sources.  Hopefully the series of papers I am now writing will show convincing evidence that ancient dates can be known in much more detail than we would have ever expected.
God Bless,
Darrell K. White



>>> Chapter One: - The Pre-Dynastic Era (The

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neolithic/Bronze/Iron and Steel Industries  After

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Flood which occurred in am 1656 or 2348 BC Noah

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and Sons stepped off the Arc and Noah planted a Vinyard.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They probably had metal tools aboard the arc but

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they also made some tools of stone to help them in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mining for Metals and this was in 2347 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> immediately after the Flood some vestages of the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ice age started immediately after the Flood in 2347

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and some Ice covered the Mountain tops  Our model

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which is the creation model insists that the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neolithic (Aggricultural and Farming ) Bronze/Iron

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and steel industries started immediately at this

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time before any hunter-gatherers came on the seen about 100 yrs later from the end of the flood.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It should also be noted that this period was all

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> metals and was carried through the flood from

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creation 4004 BC before any marked deterioration

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into stone age cultures or industries took place.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2295 BC through to 2254 2252 BC and 2247 (Last

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> devision inthe days of Peleg for in that day was

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the earth devided, and these were the world survey

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teams who probably made stone tools to aid them in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their work mining for metals, in 2254 Cush son of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ham went to his kingdom; while the Sidonians

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Phoenicians) mined for metals and built the port of Gadir in Spain for trade with Britain and mined for some copper tin and Bronze in Cornwall up to the time of despersion.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visits by Madai son of Japeth to Britain were

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> between 2254 and 2247 BC and probably relied on

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others for metal tools as he probably did'nt have

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the knowledge of how to smelt metals and relied

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instead on stone tools as he and his men were

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> probably hunter Gatherers in arround 2247 BC 100

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yrs from the end of the Flood while Sidon and sons

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the children of Canaan were mining for tin and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copper in cornwall so that they could smelt the two together to make Bronze tools contemporary with Madai who found his land of Britain covered in Ice thus ownly a land fit for Huntergatherers .

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> These were the begginings   of Early stone age tecnology or

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Palaeolithic industries some of whoe's remains have

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> been found in Swanscombe in a Gravel pit of the Thames.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cichol Gricenchos (Son of Sidon) was bourne about

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2250 BC and the survey teams probaly arrived in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ireland in 2248 BC to show Cichol his fishing

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grounds so he was  thus a mature leader by the time

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> he was 25yrs of age and led the first band of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Formorei who were the Neanderthal sp groups and therefore Picts to colonise Northern Scotland .

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They spent some time in Norfolk and the Doggerlands

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> where the scull of a Neanderthal mail has been found

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> alongside weopen and implements of the chase allong

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the wooly Mammoth whom they also hunted the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wooly Rhino and Sabre toothed Tiger. I sugest that

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although the commet strike or Ice commet could have

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> struck in 2247 BC; which I sugest parts of it did; but that the whole thing disintegrated probably at the time of Babel in 2191 BC.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ardna was sent by Nimrod to collect a soil sample in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2208 BC in Ireland and returned back to Babylon

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> His men were cuthite Arabs, Germany was colonised by

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tuitch (Shem) in 2192 BC and brought the Neolithic

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and copper industries to Germany and they made their

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hedquarters at Koelne Deutz not far from Cologne



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Building and founding of the city of Trier in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Germany took place 2000 years before Caesar (Caesar

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bourne 79 BC) making the 2079 BC and another history

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> says it was founded 1300 years before Rome was founded in 753 BC which would be for the lower limmit 2053 BC.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In 2189 BC the City or village of Skara Brae was

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> founded by Cichol Gricenchos and became a base for

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> opperations between Skandenavia and Northern Scotland

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus contrary to evolutionary propaganda the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neanderthals also were capable of Neolthic civilization and according to one book they had Grooved ware Pottery.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cichol Gricenchos and his Neanderthal sp groups were

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Scandenavia between 2225 BC and 2129 BC and they

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> colonised Scotland 200 yrs before Batle of Magithe

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with Partholan which was fought in 2025 BC 10 yrs after Partholan landed in Ireland.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The next people to Colonise Scandenavia was King Eric

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and his Goths again of Neolithic (Cromagnon origins?)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who came to Skandenavia 62 yrs after Babel. Nimrod

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> began to rule from 2191 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Samothes was of the tribe of Cromagnon and reached

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Southern England in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2135 BC as our research shows and was in France in 2172

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BC and came and arrived here 37 yrs later and dies in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2088 BC His people left us a lot of cave paintings

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although I would credit the Neanderthals with most of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. He Samothes gave his name to the Samotheans and had

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a son called Magus who coursed cities and towns and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> villages to be built later in 2038 BC after the arrival

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Albion son of Sidon who came with more Palaeolithic

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> industries and ruled Britain in the South from 2082 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to 2038 BC when Nimrod's General conquered the giants (Herculese) in France and defeated Lesrigo Bergion and Albion.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bergeon the Irish giant ruled Ireland from 2082 BC,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Partholan came when Ireland was uninhabbited in 2035 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 3 yrs after the defeat of the giants. Some of the Celts

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of Neolithic culture fought alongside Nimrod's army

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under Herculese thus Nimrod died in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2068 BC.Neolithic civilization was reintroduced world

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wide by Nimrod in ca 2094 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thus Samothes died after 53 Yrs rule in Britain from

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2135 BC to 2088 BC. Albion invaded the South of England

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in 2082 BC (He was a son of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sidon) and Bergeon the Irish giant ruled the North and

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ireland, Thus there would have been a continuation of

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Neanderthal culture at this date as Britain was joined to the continent at this date.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In 2038 BC Magus son of Samothes came with Nimrod's army

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under the command of Herculese and there were some celts

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in this army and fought and defeated the giants in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> France. Stonehenge was probably the first to be built at

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this time which is dated by the conventional chronology

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about 3000 BC or 5000 years ago which in Ussherian chronology would date to 2038/2035 BC.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Magus coursed many towns and villages to be built in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> france and England at this time and came with the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> aggricultural mode of life which is characteristic of the Neolithic industries and trade &C.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This Kinglist goes up to Celts who was contemporary with

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Britain Mail (A Diffrent linage of Kings) He will be

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussed on our researches in Ireland.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Magus ruled untill 1987 BC and ruled for a total period of

>>>>>>>>>>>>> 51 years and the next in line was Saronides who were the

>>>>>>>>>>>>> ancestors of the sacrificing priest so a date for

>>>>>>>>>>>>> stonehenge say at the time of Abraham

>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1996-1821 BC would be a reasonable conclusion from say

>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2038 BC and this would be as a monument to catastrophe

>>>>>>>>>>>>> with the possible dissintegration of a commet or astroid

>>>>>>>>>>>>> of ice at the time of the despersion in 2191 BC or

>>>>>>>>>>>>> possibly 2247 BC in the days of Peleg when the earth reached it's final devision.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> The next in line to rule in the Southern part of Britain

>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Southern

>>>>>>>>>>>>> England) after Saronides who ruled for a period of 61 yrs

>>>>>>>>>>>>> till 1926 BC was Druis who was founder of the order of

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Druids who were the priests who made the laws and carried

>>>>>>>>>>>>> out sacrifices  &c and he ruled for a period of 14 yrs

>>>>>>>>>>>>> till 1912 BC  The Next British king was Bardus who was

>>>>>>>>>>>>> founder of the bards (who played musical instrements such

>>>>>>>>>>>>> as the harp &c and ruled untill 1837 BC a period of 75 yrs.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> The next in line was Longhoe  and he ruled from 1837 BC to

>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1809 BC which is a period of 28 yrs.

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bardus the second ruled from 1809 BC to 1772 BC a period

>>>>>>>>>>>>> of 11 yrs


>>>>>>>>>>>>> In 1761 BC Celtes who gave his name to the Celts ruled 13

>>>>>>>>>>>>> yrs to 1748 BC in Late Neolithic times and overlapped with

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Britain Mail (of a diffrent linage of Kings) and ruled

>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scotland from 1755 BC


>>>>>>>>>>>>> Celtes would be abit before the famine of Joseph in 1708

>>>>>>>>>>>>> BC and would have some bearing on the Ice age Max about 1800 BC.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thus it was 1491 BC in Egypt at the time of the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Exodus and all the Ice age glaciers melted at this

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>time and Britain became an island


>>>>>>>>>>>>  Britain became known as the "Honey Isles" and in about

>>>>>>>>>>>> 1421 to 1365 BC Hu Gadarn came with his men and found the island uninhabbited.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Before this time we know there were inhabbitants because of

>>>>>>>>>>>> the remains of Mammoth and sammothes colonies that are now

>>>>>>>>>>>> covered by the North Sea which was a result of the

>>>>>>>>>>>> termination of the Ice age in 1491 BC.

>>>>>>>>>>>>  A reintroduction of the Bronze industry was brought to

>>>>>>>>>>>> Britain by Hu G and his men. this was early Bronze 1 and

>>>>>>>>>>>> Brutus came here to Cornwall after the fall of Troy and

>>>>>>>>>>>> landed in Totness in 1152 BC and was a mix of EB1 and MB1 ALTERATION: This date is now revised to 1118 BC as the date of the Trojan war is 1184 BC (See email on white background from Darryl White below) *

>>>>>>>>>>>> industries. Stonehenge was probably rebuilt by Hu G and his men between 1421 (Upper limmit) and 1365 BC.

>>>>>>>>>>>> Brutus found a remenent of Giants when he landed in Totness

>>>>>>>>>>>> and Corenius ressled Gog Magog and through him into the sea

>>>>>>>>>>>> at Plyouth Hoe (Giant's Leap to this day). These giants

>>>>>>>>>>>> were canaanites or a remenent possibly of Neanderthals who

>>>>>>>>>>>> had survived into Historic times. Any more than that we do

>>>>>>>>>>>> not know. It would be fair to say that the Sammothes or

>>>>>>>>>>>> Neolithic groups under Magus arrived here in 2038 BC 310 yrs from the flood (Additional Note in our chronology).


>>>>>>>>>>>> The Late Bronze industry occurred about 722 BCto 585 BC And

>>>>>>>>>>>> in 546 to

>>>>>>>>>>>> 539 BC (Line of Brutus ends civil war) Morindus was king of Britain

>>>>>>>>>>>> and brought Iron   Industry A with him . From this time swords were

>>>>>>>>>>>> made from Iron all though Bronze was still used and from

>>>>>>>>>>>> 330 -300 BC the Latene Celts were in Britain with Iron B

>>>>>>>>>>>> The two Roman invasions by Julius Caesar were 55 and 54 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>> and Claaudius conqured Brtain in AD 43. Before the Romans

>>>>>>>>>>>> left Britain they built Hadrian's Wall in Scotland to keep

>>>>>>>>>>>> the Picts out as they were a problem throughout the period of occupation.

>>>>>>>>>>>>  The Roman Legions were recalled to Rome in AD 410 as the

>>>>>>>>>>>> Empire or Rome itself was being thretened bu the Goths

>>>>>>>>>>>> Vandels and Huns who eventually sacked Rome and Britain was

>>>>>>>>>>>> thus being threatened By Angles Saxons and Jutes.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Chapter Two:- A Brief History of Bible Lands From the

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Neolithic/ Bronze/Iron and Steel Inndustries to Late


>>>>>>>>>>> When Noah and Sons stepped off the ark at the end of the

>>>>>>>>>>> flood in 2347 BC; Noah became a farmer or in Biblical terms

>>>>>>>>>>> a "Husbandman; and planted a vinyard there were metal tools

>>>>>>>>>>> on the arc but they also made stone tools to help them in

>>>>>>>>>>> mining for metals which were particularly plentifull after the flood. This period up to the time of the founding of Egypt is called by archaeologists the Predynastic period and by Donovan Courville "The Stone Age" by his chronology a brief period of about 200 yrs. The industries charts for bible lands indecate that he has used Thiel's chronology; However mine and Darrell's are from Ussherian dates so the Neolithic/Bronze/Iron and Steel industries began immediately after the flood in 2347 BC given the flood lasted from 2348-2347 BC.The Early Bronze period would begin with the founding of Babel in 2234 BC through to the despersion and beyond 2191 BC as the Tower took 43 yrs to build.

>>>>>>>>>> Nimrod began to rule in 2191 and the founding of Egypt by

>>>>>>>>>> Misraem

>>>>>>>>>> (Menes) was in 2189/2188 BC so this would be the start of the

>>>>>>>>>> early Bronze period for Egypt and Israel which would be 2188

>>>>>>>>>> BC-1500 BC

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This of course is up to the time of the Exodus. MB1 started 1500 BC to 1055 BC and MB2 in 1055 BC attributable to Egypt.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>In 2295 BC through to 2254 2252 and 2247 BC there were the first early survey teams who probably made stone tools to aid them in their mining for metals and the Phonicians under Sidon built a port in Spain Gadir for trade between Britain and Spain and mined for copper and tin in Cornwall right through to the time of despersion in 2191 BC while they coexisted alongside the palaeolithic tribes of Neanderthal &c and kept their technology secret from the natives.

>>>>>>>>>>>>The Middle Bronze 1 Industry started in 1445 BC for Israel

>>>>>>>>>>>>to 1081 BC and Middle Bronze 2 began in 1081 to 722 BC with

>>>>> the Iron industry for Israel which was 722 BC to 539 BC and from

>>>>> 539 BC to 300 BC was Late Iron>>

>>> There was an increase in population at this date and according to

>>> Donovan Courville the same people as MB/LB in fortified cities and

>>> the return from exile. In 1081 to 586 BC Judah was in the MB2 Industry.

>>> The era of Judges then after examining Courville's chart would have

>>> been for Israel &c  would have been 1445 to 1081 BC and from

>>> 1081-722

>>> (North) would have been the Israelite Monarchy>>with sophisticated

>>> culture with Afluent prosperous life styles with fortified cities

>>> and the North also from 1081-586 BC for Judah. 586-539 would be the

>>> Assyrian and Babylonian invasions and exile.(South) 539-300 BC would

>>> be the return from exile. I would just like to make a note on the

>>> early Bronze of Egypt 2188 -1500 BC that 2189/2188 BC Misraem

>>> (Menes) had severn sons and built severn cities; five in Egypt and

>>> two in Lybya and in the war of unification 27 yrs after the founding

>>> of Egypt (Thus 2188 BC -27=2161 BC) some of the cities were

>>> destroyed with ownly four left. One of the W and E Delta reagions

>>> what is now North African Desert appears to have been lush at the time.


>>> A Great Lake existed in North Africa and Lybia and was a good Firtile Area.>The Link of interest for Donovan Courville'schart and chronology is http://biblicalstudies.ozwide.net.au/chronology_of_egypt_and_israel.html and it would be good here to give David K. Down a mention as he appears to have had a hand in writing the paper. It will be noted however that Courville's chronology in some instances is off and have thus coppied his industries chart for the interest of the Reader.

>> My last and final chapter will deal with the history of Ireland which

>> is chapter Three in some detail going back to the start at 2248 BC

>> when the last of the survey teams arrived back in Ireland for the

>> final devision  as far as the son Cichol Gricenchos of Canaanite

>> origen is concerned.> Chapter Three :- Ireland From Partholan to

>> Miles:-


> In 2208 BC one of Nimrod's relation's came to Ireland which was after

> the Flood (2348 BC) 148 yrs to colect a soil sample according to

> Keating from Ireland and return to Babylon having in mind that the

> founding of Babylon and the start of the Tower of Babel was in 2234 BC

> which took  43 yrs to build  and ended with the despersion in 2191 BC.

> Now according to Keating we hear nothing more of Ardna who collected

> the sample from Ireland and returned to Babylon but going back earlier

> Keating informs us that the last of the Canaanite survey teams arrived

> in Ireland 100 yrs after the flood in 2248 BC to find suitable fishing

> grounds but was not yet colonised at this stage.Cichol bourne 2250 BC

> would have been a mature leader by age of 25 in 2225 BC and Colonised

> Orkney in the North of Scotland.

> These people were of Palaeolithic or early stone age culture and were

> firstly and formostly huntergathers and fishermen and arrived there

> during the early Ice age having in mind Britain was covered by the Ice

> Sheet earlier in 2247 BC when other hunter gatherers contemporary with

> the Sidonians who were mining for copper and Bronze at this period up

> till 2191 BC and who had a port in Spain so they could do trade with

> Britain about 2252 BC.

> Some Neanderthal sculls have been dredjed up from the North Sea which

> they seemed to have occupied between 2225 and 2129 BC where we find

> also remains of the Mammoth and Wooly Rynosorous prehistoric animals

> &c . Thus this proves that Cichol Gricenchos and his Neanderthal SP

> groups occupied parts of the Doggerlands and Norfolk arround this date

> and made Orkney an outpost for opperations between Scandenavia and the

> North of Scotland at this date and had roughly chipped weopens and

> implements for the chase; if we reckon that Scotland or the North of

> it was colonised  200 yrs


> before the Battle of Magithe with Partholan in 2025 BC.Cicol's people were of Canaanite/Phoenician origen and in 2189 BC they addopted Neolithic civilization with a mix of the earlier palaeolithic industries and built the village or City of Skara Brae;and archaeologists have found Grooved ware pottery and including "Red Ochre Paint " which was used in Burial cerimonies for the Dead. This is totally contrary to the evolutionary picture of things which they "The evolutionists would have us believe .

But the research done by this author proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Neanderthals were indeed in Northern Scotland and even built some of the megaliths there.

Cichol's people are also known as the earliest Formorians or Formorei who were in fact the earliest Picts. There was a later group of giants who came with Albion during the "End Palaeolithic and occupied but did'nt colonise Ireland in 2082 BC who was Bergeon and he ruled untill

2038 BC when he was defeated along with Cichol's other brothers Albion &c when Herculese fought the "Battle of the Titan" (Herculese was Nimrod's general) and fought alongside other celts of Neolithic culture or aggriculturalists who practised farming and had weopens and implements of Pollished Flint Obsidian &c untill Parholan came and arrived by ship to Ireland in 2035 BC when he had found it safe to do so.

Ten yrs later in 2025 BC Partholan fought the Battle of Magithe with Cichol before he started his rule in 2024 BC and defeated and killed all the formorians including Cichol.

According to the archarchaeological evidense the Village of Skara Brae was abbandoned in a hurry as a bone necklass was found in one of the houses which were built of stone. Partholan brought true Neolithic civilization to Ireland and started his rule in 2024  BC and ruled 269 yrs untill 1755 BC. There was a plague at this time and Ireland was uninhabited for 30 yrs untill 1725 BC.


I would thus conclude that Partholan and his men built New Grange when he occupied Ireland and built a lot of Drystone walling arroud his villages. Also in 1755 BC Nemed's Son or Grandson occupied and colonised Scotland during the late Neolithic period.

They used copper tools and certainly does'nt rule out the use of some bronze or Iron tools although they were ignorent of the smelting of copper and tin to make Bronze tools and weopens. His name was Britan the Bald and probably gave his name to Britain instead of Brutus.


In 1725 BC Nemed came and colonised Ireland (These were all

Japethites) and used copper and neolithic tools as well. It is said that Partholan had leg irons for horses and oxen as he Partholan had brought the plough with him to Ireland Nemed's time was after the Plague 30 yrs after 1755 BC, and it will be noted that Partholan arrived 313 yrs after the flood in 2035 BC while in Britain it was 310 years after the flood in 2038 BC. In 1508 BC there were Battles with Formorian giants(who were Pirates) and in 1504 BC the last of three Battles was fought and Ireland was without a king for 200 years and Ireland was a wasteland. (According to the Book of Invasions Nemed ruled 217 yrs.) Gaedel left Egypt in 1483 BC eight yrs after the exodus so 1043 BC + 440 (Miles colonised Ireland in 1043 BC) = 1483 the eigth year after the exodus when Gaedel left Egypt thus Ireland was uninhabbited owing to the Ice age Meltdown in 1491 BC. Now concerning when Hiber Scott claimed Ireland it would have been a sizable time after the exodus probably arround 1460 BC but not before

1356 BC and some early Bronze tools and weopens might have belonged to his expedition but certainly not enough for a full transition.


In 1354 BC the Firbolgue (Early Bronze) fought the Battle of long strife with the Formorians and after 54 yrs the formores were beaten and after 200 yrs in 1304 BC the Firbolgue rule Ireland for 37 yrs. In

1267 BC Firbolgues battle with Twarthy de Darnan Battle of Long Strife and in 1240 BC Firbolgue power is eliminated and Twarthy de Darnan rule Ireland 197 years and in 1043 BC The Son of Miles arrive (The

Milesians) and eliminate the Twarthy de Darnan from power. Note (Nemed ruled from 1725 to 1508 BC and fought three Battles with North African Formores ).1354 BC is the transition to EB1 before Firbolgues get a foothold on Ireland and rule it for 37 Yrs.


Hiber Scott's decendents came to Ireland in the 12th yr of King David and this was a mix of MB2 stimulated by Soloman These were the son of Miles.

>>>>>>>>>>End of History Paper.

  * Darryl white to JXF:



When I attempt to find a date for ancient events I search for original durations, synchronisms, or other ancient clues - some ancient reference which allows me to estimate or determine a date.  I never accept the speculation of modern chronologists as worthy of consideration unless they specify how (from ancient sources) they came up with their estimates. Obviously 500 to 700 BC is totally out of line and I am confident that author did not show how he came to that conclusion.


However, I looked at  "re-evaluation of ancient man" at your site and have two comments:


1)  I think the best date for Brutus is 1118 BC.  


I know of only 3 or 4 credible ancient clues for the date.


a)  1200 years after the Flood  or  2348 BC - 1200 years = 1148 BC.  [Rough Estimate - better than 1152 BC]

I assume the above is a rounded off number and could easily be as much as plus or minus 30 to 40 years off.


b) The specified 66 years after Troy.  1184 BC - 66 years = 1118 BC.  [most precise]


c)  synchronised to the time the High Priest Eli was judge in Israel, and when the Ark of the Covenant was taken by the Philistines.   Historia Britonum 710-11   According to FN Jones, the Ark was taken in either 1122 or 1121 BC (when Eli died hearing about it).  [Synchronisms can easily be a few years off. but this is fairly precise.]


Also Bill Cooper using genealogical generation estimates come up with 1104 BC for Brutus.  However generations estimates can also be off by 5 to 10 years per generation - [another rough estimate, but I think better than the 1200 year rough estimate.]


Base on the more precise clues, a date between 1121 BC and 1118 BC is probably the best.  I would choose 1118 BC, since it is the only precise duration given and fits well with the synchronism and generational estimates.


Conclusion: Until further credible information is found, I would now suggest changing Brutus to arriving in 1118 BC.


2)   My chart (after considerable thought) has the date for the Flood starting in Dec. of 2349 BC.  FN Jones and Ussher both specify 2348 BC.  My date is based on Hindu ancient records specifying the precise number of days from Creation and is likely to be more accurate than a duration based in years used by Jones and Ussher.  However, we should use 2348 BC.


Conclusion:  I think it is best to keep it at 2348 BC as you have it.  The difference is insignificant.



Hope this helps,





Courville's Revised Industries Chart for the Land of Israel


Dates..................Revised Dates..................Biblical Events


Stone age....Migrations First cities  10,000-3100 BC.........2300-2100 BC.................Era after the flood Early Bronze..Urban life develops.....3100-2100 BC...........2100-1400 BC.................Canaanites MB1.......Southern invaders Nomadic culture 2100-1850....1400-1000 BC.........Israelite Era of Judges MB2.......Prosperous cities ...................1850-1550

BC........1000-722 North........Israelite Monarchy

1000-586 (South)

Late Bronze.........Some MB (Inferior pottery 1550-1200.....586-539 BC.............Assyrian & Babylonian invasions and Exile Iron...........Increase in Population...............1200-586 BC......539-300 BC............Return from Exile 




 On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 9:59 PM, john hext-fremlin


 Larry here's an intersting link for you and might have some bering

 on Neanderthals being in Britain at the time it was colonised by

 the Phoenicians about 1000 BC. They have found Neanderthal remains

 and radio carbon tests have revealed they are about 3000 years

 old. (1000

 BC) and could uphold Newtons "Ammended Kingdoms" The Link is



On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 12:43 PM, john hext-fremlin wrote:

> Hi Larry yes is'nt it interesting. So if we take as our despersion

> from Babel Date at 2242 BC then they must have been wandering around

> Europe then between 2242 BC and 1000 BC. Another piece of interesting

> information I was reading was from the creation Technical Journal

> about the "Ferriby boats" that were used by the Phoenicians. But these

> were a people who had colonised Northern Scotland (Orkney) according

> to conventional chronology between 3500 and 3000 BC but by comparison

> the date for Egypt is 2188 BC so that by 2188 BC Scotland had been

> colonised by these people who appear to have built the village of

> Skara Brae. They say in TJ that the Oldest Ferriby Boat is about 4000

> yrs old dating back to about 2000 BC or weather that's speculation on

> their part.. Interesting thing is ; would the Ice age still have been

> in evidense about 1000 BC do you reckon Larry? John


 Please let me know what you think about this idea. John

 On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Larry Pierce

 It is possible.


 Darrell you mention an interesting date of 2295 BC for the beggining

 of world surveys. Do the Simultaneious civilizations or industries of

 simultaneous contemporary Palaeolithic/Neolithic/Bronze/Iron and

 steel date back to the first world survey teams. I have a sneaking

 suspicion that these people mentioned by Velekovskey were one and the

 same people or survey teams. What do you reckon Darrell and what

 ethnic origen were they? Canaanites? John

 Darrell you mention an interesting date of 2295 BC for the beggining

 of world surveys. Do the Simultaneious civilizations or industries of

 simultaneous contemporary Palaeolithic/Neolithic/Bronze/Iron and

 steel date back to the first world survey teams. I have a sneaking

 suspicion that these people mentioned by Velekovskey were one and the

 same people or survey teams. What do you reckon Darrell and what

 ethnic origen were they? Canaanites? John


Yes, right after the flood, near where the Ark landed, is evidence of

 advance metal technology.  Thus, it was at the time of the survey


The teams probably had representatives of most families in them. 

 However, Sidon probably headed up the navigation, at least in the




> Subject: Re: Simultaneous Stone Bronze and Iron cultures on Lena River

> in Russia


>> Hi Vern this down below is something that should be bourne in mind in

>> relation to advanced ancient metalurgy.  Velekovskey descovered that

>> the industries of stone Bronze and Iron (ie they were living in

>> palaeolithic time; neolithic and bronze and iron time too).This was

>> in the time of the world survey teams 2295 BC right after the flood

>> near where the arc had landed. Thus I detect the begginnings of

>> palaeolithic industries alongside that od the neolithic /Bronze/Iron

>> and Steel Industries which started immediately after the flood 2347

>> BC. I am here sugesting that the survey teams practised a mixed

>> ecconemy of huntergathering/aggriculture and metal working at the

>> same time. Thus I believe it would be absurd to think that Noah had

>> no metal tools aboard the arc hence the misconception of purely stone

>> tools and beginning of palaeolithic followed on by the Neolithic

>> (Later reintroduced by Nimrod). Thus Mankind was a farmer (Neolithic

>> ) from the word "Go". John On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 2:30 PM, john




Larry according to my industries chart I have dynasty one in Egypt by
Misraem 2188 BC whom i believe to be Menes (EB1). Given the berth of
Abraham am 2008 or 1996 BC then it is possible that the archaeological
sequence might be ok for Engedi but not Egypt

As far as I know there was no so-called Predynastic period in Egypt
accept before it was colonised by Menes in 2189/2188 BC. Here is an
interesting link that could shed some light on the subject:-
http://creation.com/the-times-of-abraham john


Hi Darrell did you get the links page I sent you on the Times of
Abraham which he places in the Ghasul period what ever that might be
also the Local "Ammorites and the "Cave of the Treasure" in Engedi. I
have looked on my industries chart for the Bible Lands region and have
a clash of the titans some where arround this date.

Thus having looked it up I come up with 1996 to 1821 BC for the time
of Abraham. As I have said before Ozgood's dates are off Especially in
light of the dates we have on our charts which are from the ancient
Chroniclers in the main.

Chedolamer never succeded in taking Egypt but Ozgood might be correct
in saying that the Late Neolithic/Copper industry of Engedi would be
contempoary with EB1 of Egypt which is what I would sugest given our
dates ie 1996 to 1821 BC. I do not know what is supposed to have
happened according to Damien Mackay in 1870 BC. Maybe Engedi also
adopted EB1 from Egypt. John

On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 5:49 PM, john hext-fremlin

- Hide quoted text -
> Hi Damien If Engedi was what you call "Chalcolithic" (Neolithic/copper
> industry) then given Abraham's birth ca annomundi 2008 or 1996 BC then
> the final Neolithic or as you call it "Chalcolithic stage of Engedi
> would have to have been somewhere of the order I would immagine of
> about 1996 BC to 1870 BC.
> Yes Damien my chart reveals time of Abraham from 1996 to ca 1821 BC;
> then I suspect "Chalcolithic Engedi would have to be contemporary with
> Early Bronze Industry of Egypt. Thus my chart also sugests that he
> Chedolamer attacked the West and tried to take Egypt but never
> succeded in second "Battle of the Titan" to take Egypt.
> Thus if he had succeded he would have been the next in line to Nimrod
> in World Government accept that Nimrod died in about 2065 BC according
> to Darrell's reckoning.
> Thus I think it should most respectfully bourne in mind in this
> connection that the first clash of the Titan was fought in France
> while Albion the Giant was ruling Britain . Thus this Battle occurred
> in about 2038 BC 310 yrs from the flood (ca 2348 BC) when Herculese
> Nimrod's General defeated and slew the giants Bergeon Lestrigo and
> Albion &c in Northern France and indeed some celts helped Herculese in
> this army and liberated the celts in Britain This would mark the
> begginning of Neolithic civilization in Britain under Magus as he
> coursed towns cities and villages and houses to be built and also
> aggricultural way of life.
> All the above daes quoted match well with what the ancient chroniclers
> have dated. Thus in conclusion I would think that the times of Abraham
> should also fit in nicely with British and ancient European Histories.
> Despite the fact that Dr Hoe was an "Anglo Israelist" but did some
> very good research. Also ofcourse Damien is the fact that if Dr hoe
> were still alive I think despite the fact that he and I hold to a
> worldwide destructive flood yet we both of us recognise that there is
> indeed an antedeluvian archaeology despite what some young earth
> creationist or "Flood" Geologists would have us believe. As ever
> Damien Many thanks for what you do for me also very mery christmass
> happy New Year and indeed Good Hunting :- John
> I will just look up when stonehenge was built according to my
> industries chart in "Chronology of Neolithic Man
> On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 5:00 PM, john hext-fremlin
>> john hext-fremlinHi Damien the essay from Dr Herman L Hoe (Compendium
>> of World History ) is at...
>> Dec 23 (1 day ago)
>> Reply |Damien Mackey to me
>> show details 11:41 PM (17 hours ago)
>> dateThu, Dec 23, 2010 at 11:41 PM
>> subjectRe: Neanderthal Origens
>> mailed-bygmail.com
>> signed-bygmail.com
>> hide details 11:41 PM (17 hours ago)
>> I read it, John, but it did not do much for me I would have to admit.
>> Though he seems. like Osgood, to locate Abram to the Ghassul period,
>> which I accept. Ash at that time does not necessarily mean Sodom,
>> though. You'd need something far more positive than that, I would
>> think.
>> To put it briefly, Dr. Hoe did not inspire me for Christmas to go Ho, ho, ho.
>> Have a wonderful and blessed Christmas,
>> Damien.




Subject: Re: Golden Age

> Date: Sunday, December 12, 2010, 2:15 PM

- Hide quoted text -

> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 7:13 PM, john
> hext-fremlin

> wrote:
> > I was just thinking of your term "Golden Age" which I
> find interesting
> > in this connection. The book of Genesis mentions the
> gold being good
> > in that land which was by the four rivers. Thus Adam
> must have had
> > access to Gold as well as wooden and stone tools
> before the invention
> > of Bronze and Iron by Tubal Cain.
> > I think this might make good sense if he used gold
> onnyx stone and
> > Jasper in addition to stone tools. What do you
> reckon?

I think it is interesting that all of the stones/minerals mentioned
are used primarily for making jewelery but there were also used for
abrasives in polishing and for studing iron pens and saws. Also the
ancients iron technology surpased ours in some cases such as the iron
pilar in India which is not rusting.

Please excuse my criticism but you keep referencing Tubal-Cain as the
inventor of bronze and iron which would not be the case at all as the
Bible never says this nor does it appear to be all that logical. I am
not aware of any stone that was dressed without use of iron. If Cain
built a city then he most likely built it with iron tools. The
ancients never were without iron! Job 19:23,24 an iron scribe is
described. Job was a patriarch right after the flood and during the
Ice Age. And in Jeremiah a diamond studed iron pen is described. The
ancients studed iron and bronze with diamonds and other very hard
stones to use as saws to cut stones. They always had it, but not
necessarily every people group produced it. Those that didn't traded
for it.

Times of Abraham Summary and Review

Hi Darrell; I'll try and keep this email as short as possible within
the ten minutes you suggested.

1/ Chronology. Damien Mackey has used Philip Morrow's chronology as
far as I can gather but Osgood tends to round off his figures eg:- I
calculated 2035 BC - 175 yrs (Abraham) =1860 BC for supposed early
dynastic or Menes.

2 /Ussher has from 2008 am or 1996 BC - 175 yrs=1821 BC (quite clearly
a diffrence of 39 yrs) so natuiraly I go with Ussher and the Ancient

3/ Who was Abraham's Faroe? Was it Abimalech as Damien Mackey says it
is or rather as he says Genesis says it is.

4/ Archaeology.

5 / The Cave of the Treasure revealed socalled "Chalcolithic
archaeology " in Engedi region. Was it contemporary with EB1 which I
and you would say started by Misraem in 2188 BC.

6/ I sugest if there were any late Neolithic and copper industries in
Gassul region they must have been contemporary with EB1 in Egypt

7/ Donovan Courville you and myself insist that the predynastic was
before any founding of Egypt Israel etc from 2347 to 2188 BC.

8/ What about this archaeology ? John

Notes on Egypt

Hi Darrell I have sugested to Damien that there were two faroes at the
time of Abraham with a possibibility of an overlap of Late
"Predynastic" coexisting with the Old/Middle Kingdoms. Now where
Damien gets the idea that Kufu belonged to the Exodus period I really
don't know thus to use Damien's own "word play" It's all very
"Kufusing " as you might say.

Was the second pharoe who did'nt rule over Memphis a Philistine? If so
it might correrlate with Abimalech. According to Damien Abimalech is
also evident in Isaac's time also. John

Hi Damien Darrell has got a brief history of Egypt founded by Misraem
and according to Darrell's sources and the ancient chroniclers Menes
(Misraem) was it's first Faroe. He says that Heracleopololis was
founded in 2189 BC shortly before Thinis 2188 BC and that each city
state had a pharoe or king over each city. However I have found some
interesting links on Abimalech and Abraham (A kind of Cross
Reffrencing) John

Many thanks Darrell most interesting. Dr Osgood uses 4000 BC for
creation and 31 yrsafter creation the fall of Adam. John

Hi Darrell yes that is an interesting thought about the fall. Maybe to
calculate it if one knows the date of the crucifiction then work say
from 4 BC forward that might give us some idea; although it has been
said that the fall occurred after day 7 of creation.

Thus my conclusions on Dr Ozgood are that he is indeed a "secular
chronologist" within the parameters of young earth creationism; but as
I said before I cannot trust his dates especially for the flood; as he
gives dates of Plus or minus 11 years which is most unreliable in my

I'll send you an email from Damien which more or less admits Osgood
has made some serious mistakes but goes on to talk about a supposed
"Pre-Flood Archaeology" which I think is to do with the "Cave of the
Treasure" It would be interesting if we could find the Flood/Post
Flood Boundary, John


Hi Darrell yes I aggree with that Damien is a pretty good researcher;
but how he dated Hamurabi to 1400 BC (ie Courville and Osgood) I don't
know. What is of great interest to me is Damien's supposed
antedeluvien archaeology and placing Adam in a stoneage cultural
sequence to the time of Tubal Cain. I wonder if his archaeology has
anything to do with the Flood/Post Flood Boundary. Hows the Paris
Basin History doing Darrell. We have made some very interesting
inroads into that. John

Hi Darrell; was Sesostrice the third the Pharoe of the oppression; I
seem to remember in an email maybe one year ago that we were dealing
with the supposed invasion of Greece according to Ussher's Annals of
the World of annomundi 2520 or 1484 BC by a "Ghost Egyptian led army
by the pharoe of the exodus who drowned in the red sea 7yrs before
this time.

However you mentioned a certain Sesostrice that invaded Greece and
Europe somewhere of the order of 1575 BC unless I'm mistaken. I don't
know whether there was a Sesostrice the second so I guess it must be
one of the two. If as you say Darrell David Downs uses a lot of Thiel
Chronology; then that should,nt be too difficult to translate into
Ussherian chronology as one can see from my industries chart compared
to the chart used by Donovan Courville in his "The Chronology of Egypt
and Israel." John


The Date of The Fall?

DW and JXF

As far as I can tell Darrell this philistine king can in mo way be
predynastic as I am quite happy to accept your history of Egypt
correrlating with anient chroniclers &c and of course Dr Donovan
Courville in which the evidence as I see it is overwhelming. I sugest
the ammorites or philistines might have had a diffrent civilization to
the Egyptiens although I would'nt like to steak my life on it . John

Hi Darrell I am enclined to aggree totaly with your conclusions that
Abimalech and Pharoe are or could be two diffrent people in time place
and location untill evidence conclusively proves otherwise so maybe
nothing too much should be read into Damien Mackey's "Naming Game". By
the way Darrell my conclusions on Dr Osgood are that he is a cecular
"Biblical" Chronologist Thus in conclusion the two simply do not mix
together. Was Osgood correct about the fall being 31 yrs after
creation? John


You asked "Was Osgood correct about the fall being 31 yrs after creation?"
Obviously, we don't know for sure. I believe I saw a date given in the book
of Jubilees, but even that would be suspect since it stands alone as only one

I think those who expected Jesus to return in 1996 to 2000 based their
projections on 6,000 years from creation and 2000 years from Christ's birth.
Since that is obviously wrong. The next 6000 year date to pick is from the fall.
Suggesting Christ was about 30/31 years old when his ministry started yields
about 2028 AD for his return. To keep the 4000 years consistent they then
assume that the fall was 30/31 years after the creation.

But do we use Christ's ministry or Christ's death? Additionally the disagreement
is significant with 26 to 29 AD for Christ's Ministry and 29 to 34 AD for his death.
At this point I am not sure which is the best fit to the Chroniclers, but it appears
that roughly 28 AD was the start of Christ' Ministry and either 29 or 30 AD was
his death. Vast amounts of research is available on this topic.

Even if we knew the above, the 4000 years and 6000 years are just assumptions.
I think they are nice assumptions and hope they work, but they do not hold any
more weight than the book of Jubilee which may be passing on the true tradition
or just another fabrication by man.


Hi Darrell yes that is an interesting thought about the fall. Maybe to
calculate it if one knows the date of the crucifiction then work say
from 4 BC forward that might give us some idea; although it has been
said that the fall occurred after day 7 of creation.

Thus my conclusions on Dr Ozgood are that he is indeed a "secular
chronologist" within the parameters of young earth creationism; but as
I said before I cannot trust his dates especially for the flood; as he
gives dates of Plus or minus 11 years which is most unreliable in my

I'll send you an email from Damien which more or less admits Osgood
has made some serious mistakes but goes on to talk about a supposed
"Pre-Flood Archaeology" which I think is to do with the "Cave of the
Treasure" It would be interesting if we could find the Flood/Post
Flood Boundary, John

- Hide quoted text -

Canaanite and Egyptian culture (DM, DW,  and JXF)

Legend has it that the Israelites built pyramids for Egypt, but also
much more. I would suggest a 4th-12th Dynasty building and irrigation
program here.
Abraham came much earlier.


Hi Damien you may be right about Abimalech however it seems we have
some pretty good correrlation here consistent with Ussher and the
ancient chroniclers that the cannanites had a slightly diffrent
culture to the Egyptiens thus confirming Dr Osgood's concepts; though
contemporary. John

>>> Hi Darrell what exactly is the "Cave of the Treasure" and How does it
>>> tie in with the archaeology "Of the Time of Abraham"?
>>> Did these Cananite groups have a diffrent civilization to Egypt though
>>> contemporary? And more to the point does it correrlate with the
>>> treasures found by Sir Leonard Wooly? John

>>> I would assume that the Cananites had a different culture than the
>>> Egyptians.
>>> They were sea goers and had extensive trade. Certain techological
>>> advantages
>>> would not be shared with those they traded with.
>>> However, the Philistines may have originated from Egypt and located near the
>>> sea between Canann and Egypt. Don't equate Philistine to Cananite - it may
>>> not be correct.

>>> Also, Egyptian rulers (dynasty 12) may not have shared certain technological
>>> advantages
>>> with their kings of upper and lower Egypt. Thus, slightly different
>>> cultures could
>>> exist at the same time. key word is slightly.
>>> Darrell

>> That's most interesting Darrell. Thus this so called "Chalcolithic
>> culture " as Dr Osgood calls it or in my /your terms was late
>> neolithic/copper industry (not excluding some bronze or Iron) was
>> simply contemporary with Dynastic Egypt and not as Osgood would have
>> us believe "Predynastic" in conclusion a most intersting and logical
>> deduction. John

Gunnar' Heinsohns "Stone tool count"

"Hi Damien we have another revisionist chronologist here. One Professor
Gunnar Heinsohn. What actually is your view on Gunnar's "Stone tool
count"? He beggins his chronology at 2000 BC for Swanscombe Man with
Neanderthal arriving Europe ca 1500 BC Bronze age 1500 BC and Iron age
ca 600 BC. Is this compatable with Dr Osgood's "Predynastic for Egypt
and Dynasty one starting 1860 BC? I find Gunnar Heinsohn's chronology
interesting but rather too radicle. Thus this would be the time line
for Europe Britain etc as opposed to the Middle East Egypt Israel &c.
Some chronologists (especially young earth creationists insist that
you cannot carbon 14 date any thing over 3000 to 3500 years ago.) How
would you respond to that Damien? John


Are you calling Gunnar Heinsohn a Neanderthal?

While the good Professor is useful at pointing out (laying bare) the problems of the conventional chronology, he is hopeless at providing a serious revision.
As G.K. Chesterton famously said: "The Reformer is always right about what's wrong. However, he's often wrong about what is right."

From what I recall of him, Gunnar Heinsohn gets rid of the whole Abrahamic period. And much else. He is the Edward Scissorhands of revisionists.



Dear John

You should find my latest article interesting. It gives the Flood level for Jericho.
Actually, as in Mesopotamia, the archaeologists have split the Flood (e.g. Ur flood not co-ordinated with Kish flood, but separated by 500 years). I follow Courville's nine pre-dynastic levels at Jericho, with both 4 and 6, severe erosion and abandonment of site, representing the Flood (in my view).
But the archaeologists have split these with a level 5, Pre-Pottery Neolithic B, which should actually correlate with level 3.

Evidence for the

Genesis Flood

at Jericho


Damien F. Mackey

(Published with permission)



 “The most complete sequence of [pre-dynastic] cultures are to be found on the site of Jericho”.

Dr. D. Courville, The Exodus Problem and its Ramifications, Vol. II, p. 154.





On p. 157 of the same volume of The Exodus Problem and its Ramifications, Dr. Courville offers the following summary of the archaeological sequence from bedrock to the beginning of the Early Bronze Age [EBA]:


1.      The stone sanctuary resting on bed-rock.

2.      The numerous floors beginning on bed-rock, each evidently representing the remains of mud hut dwellings and making up in total some 13 feet of clay.

3.      Three successive building phases of a more solid type and included within the duration of the earliest wall.

4.      Evidences of severe erosion for an undeterminable period.

5.      Successive building levels ranging in number from 10 to 26 and belonging to Pre-pottery Neolithic B.

6.      Further evidences of erosion over an undeterminable period.

7.      The pit dwellings of Pottery Neolithic A.

8.      The extension of Pottery Neolithic A into Pottery Neolithic B, with huts built in the pits carved out by the previous people.

9.      Allowance for the Chalcolithic period, presumed to require insertion between the end of Pottery Neolithic B and the beginning of the Early Bronze Age.


Courville had, in the previous pages, provided a fuller explanation of each of these various phases that he has briefly summarized here.


The Biblical Context of the Jericho Sequences


My interest is to locate this sequential arrangement in its biblical context, based on my previous arguments that the Genesis (or Noachic) Flood did not annihilate all previous culture – whereas, according to Drs. Courville, Osgood and others, it did. If I am right, then archaeological evidence for the Genesis Flood should occur at one or more of the above stratigraphical levels at Jericho, just as it has in Mesopotamia.

[I also reject the term, “pre-dynastic”, since I believe that there were dynasties (Seth-ite and Cain-ite) even before the Flood].

Here is what I deem to be the actual Jericho sequence with reference to the Old Testament.


A.    Bed-rock (Corresponding to Courville’s 1)

“In the beginning … God created the heavens and the earth …. And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”.” (Genesis 1:1, 9).


Courville’s description (op. cit., p. 154): “Excavations to bedrock at the Jericho site revealed that the limestone composing it was covered by about one foot of clay …”. If the Noachic Flood was global, and had erased all previous traces of culture, as Courville had maintained, then ought not there to have been miles of sediment covering this level?


B.     First Buildings (Corresponding to Courville’s 1 & 2)

“Then Cain went away from the presence of the Lord …” (Genesis 4:16).


Courville’s description (ibid., pp. 154-155):


… one foot of clay which had been removed over an extended area to provide a foundation for a building structure on the rock formation. At one end of this excavated area, a substantial wall of stones enclosed an area of about 10 by 20 feet. Since the structure was unlike any dwelling remains observed, it was presumed that this structure represented some sort of sanctuary.


Was this sanctuary - away from the main Adamic one at the site of Jerusalem, to where Abel had brought his worthy offering (Genesis 4:4) - an alternative sanctuary used by the Cain-ites? This is only surmise, of course. Early Jericho is thought to show evidence of ancestor worship, which would seem to suggest that this was a religion other than the godly Sethite one, unless it pertains to the later corruption of part of that line as according to Genesis 6:2: “… the sons of God saw that [the Cain-ite daughters] were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose

“Before 6,000 BC the people of Jericho also kept skulls in shrines. The skulls had plaster 'faces' added to them to make them look lifelike and they had cowrie shells in their eye sockets. We do not know why these plastered skulls were made. The people of Jericho may have practiced some form of ancestor worship but we will never know” (http://www.localhistories.org/jericho.html).

Anyway, whoever built this sanctuary was already very competent, for, as Courville goes on to tell (ibid., p. 155):  


Interestingly, two large blocks of stone in the wall of the structure had holes bored through them to a depth of some two and one-half feet, an accomplishment somewhat surprising for the level of culture presumed to characterize this early period. The structure had eventually been burned; charcoal from the wooden beam in the roof yielded a date by the C-14 method 7,800 B.C. ± 210 years. The bases for the total rejection of this date and others subsequently referred to are presented in a previous chapter …..


In my opinion, one could probably halve this date approximately.

Around this sanctuary, dwellings began to be set up. Firstly (ibid.):


At another small area on the site, it was found that a deposit of some 13 feet of clay existed between bed-rock and the so-called Natufian culture. This 13 feet of clay revealed no signs of a solid structure and no evidences of the use of pottery. The clay deposit was made up of a large number of mud floors, one above the other, each bounded with slight bumps which were regarded as remnants of walls of the hut-like mud structures.


Then (ibid.) (Corresponding to Courville’s 3):


Only above this were evidences found of solid houses.

The remains of the more solid dwellings of the subsequent period were enclosed by a wall, suggesting danger from depradations by either man or wild beast. At one point on the wall, and extant to a height of some 30 feet, were found the remains of a stone tower built against the inside of the wall. The whole comprised “an amazing bit of architecture” for the era involved. Within this wall could be observed a sequence of three successive phases of dwellings whose combined period of life would seem to approximate that of the wall itself. The upper of these three buildings had been burned, and C-14 analysis of the charcoal from the beams gave a date 6850 B.C. ± 210 years. This culture was regarded as about 1000 years later than the stone sanctuary and 2000 years earlier than the earliest known village elsewhere in Palestine. From the similarity of flints and harpoons, this culture was correlated with the lower Natufian at Megiddo.


C. Culturally Sophisticated Man Pre-Flood.

This period, using flints, must also correspond to the antediluvian Chalcolithic period, approximating to the time of Lamech and his sons. Though according to Courville, referencing the standard view: “The Chalcolithic Age, which is presumed to be the connecting link between Neolithic and the dynastic period, is not represented at Jericho, however …” (ibid., p. 154). If this phase is really about a millennium (1000 years) after the earliest shrine, then it must have come not long before the Flood, since there were only 1656 years from Adam to the Flood.

“Furthermore the people of Jericho traded with their neighbours. Stones found in Neolithic Jericho came from as far away as Turkey showing that long distance trade was already established” (http://www.localhistories.org/jericho.html). Stronger walls and towers were now being built perhaps due to the violence in the land. Genesis 6:11: “Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight, and the earth was filled with violence”.


D. The Flood.

And surely enough the evidence for the Flood at Jericho occurs next (ibid., pp. 155-156) (Corresponding to Courville’s 4 & 6):


Evidences of severe erosion by water appeared in the upper levels of this culture, apparently representing a period of non-occupation following abandonment of the site. The length of this period of erosion could not be determined and “may have been a matter of years or of centuries”.


And again, supposedly later: “The end of Pre-pottery Neolithic B was also marked by severe erosion, the length of the period involved being again undeterminable”.

This would mean that, as in the case of the early Mesopotamian cities, the Flood evidences at different places (Ur, Kish, etc.) have not been properly co-ordinated, but have been separated in time by the archaeologists-chronologists, the one from the other, sometimes by as much as 500 years. This would mean also that Courville’s “more solid dwellings … enclosed by a wall” at 3, must synchronise basically with the Pre-pottery Neolithic B at 5, again with a wall and using flints.

Courville describes this level (ibid., p. 156):


….. Above this evidence of erosion, a new culture ap­peared which was still characterized by an absence of pot­tery. This culture was distinguished in name from its prede­cessor by designating it Pre-pottery Neolithic B. The flint artifacts would identify the people as the Tahunians, who had had a prior nomadic existence elsewhere but who now settled on the abandoned Jericho site. The culture could be distinguished archaeologically by the new type of archi­tecture which must have been developed prior to occupa­tion of this area but which has not been discovered else­where as yet. While no pottery of this people has been found on the Jericho site, vessels of limestone "finely worked and carefully finished" were in use. The first settle­ment by this people had no defensive wall about it, and the dwellings extended down the sides of the mound, indicating an increase in population over Pre-pottery Neolithic A.

A succession of 10 house levels could be traced at one point. At some time during the succession, a wall seems to have been built. At another point, 19 successive building stages were traced. In the I6th phase from the bottom, charcoal residues were obtained which gave a C-14 date 6250 B.C. ± 200 years, which date is another half millenni­um later than that attributed to Pre-pottery Neolithic A. At still another point, 26 building stages were traced, and the 9th from the bottom gave a date 5850 ± 160 years.

The end of Pre-pottery Neolithic B was also marked by severe erosion, the length of the period involved being again undeterminable. …..


E. Return to the Site After the Flood.

After some significant time [the Flood period], people returned to this site, building on the former pre-Flood ruins. These people have been designated as Pottery Neolithic A. Significantly, they comprised “a small population”. Possibly this was a result of the Babel incident dispersion. Courville tells of this new people (ibid., pp. 156-157) (Corresponding to Courville’s 7):


…. The culture that followed brought the art of pottery-making with them, but the cultural level otherwise represents a marked retrogression. This people lived in pits cut into the ruins of the earlier town, a type of life otherwise known in the Chalcolithic period near Beer­sheba. To this culture, Miss Kenyon gave the name Pottery Neolithic A. The origin of the culture is known only in terms of a few pottery fragments at various localities in Pal­estine, suggesting a wide distribution but a small popula­tion.


F. Era of Abram.

Next (ibid., p. 156) (Corresponding to Courville’s 8):


The subsequent culture, called Pottery Neolithic B, built their primitive huts in the pits dug out by their predeces­sors. The break in the culture at this point is not sharp. The pottery is more refined, but continues to be mixed with that of the preceding culture. Pottery like that of the new culture had been found also at Sha’ar ha Golan, just south of the Sea of Galilee.


This succeeding people, Pottery Neolithic B, would belong archaeologically to the time of Abram and the Amorites, as determined by Dr. John Osgood, who has nailed the archaeology of En-geddi at the time of Abram (in the context of Genesis 14) to the Late Chalcolithic period, corresponding to Ghassul IV in Palestine’s southern Jordan Valley; Stratum V at Arad; and the Gerzean period in Egypt (“The Times of Abraham”, Ex Nihilo TJ, Vol. 2, 1986, pp. 77-87). This was the time of Abram’s Pharaoh, Abimelech (= Lehabim), archaeologically of the era of Narmer. This historical phase preceded the Early Bronze Age. Courville tells further (op. cit., p. 157):


At Jericho, Early Bronze follows Pottery Neolithic B. As noted previously, the so-called Halafian culture in Mesopotamia and the Ghassulian culture from east of the Jordan Valley are regarded by some scholars as necessarily inserted in the time sequence between Pottery Neolithic B and Early Bronze. The period between Neolithic and Early Bronze is known as Chalcolithic, a name designated to indicate the combined use of copper and stone. There are no evidences for the use of copper at Jericho or elsewhere in Palestine at this time. ….


G. Egyptian Dynastic Era.

Then follows the early Bronze I period (Corresponding to Courville’s 9), of which I have written, “… immediately following this period [Ghassul IV etc.], there was a migration out of Egypt into Philistia, bringing an entirely new culture (= Early Bronze I, Stratum IV at Arad)”, and quoting Osgood (op. cit., p. 86): “In all likelihood Egypt used northern Sinai as a springboard for forcing her way into Canaan with the result that all of southern Canaan became an Egyptian domain”. This marked the beginning of Dynastic Egypt.




The Noachic Flood is stratigraphically represented at Jericho by the “evidences of severe erosion for an undeterminable period” at 4 & 6 above, following on from the archaeological phase designated Pre-pottery Neolithic B.


11th February 2011



A clarifying note from Dr. Osgood’s “The Stone Age – A Better Model”, EN Tech J., Vol. 2, 1986, p. 95, regarding:


… Jericho Neolithic - Ghassul Chalcolithic

Robert North … discusses an apparent 300-year gap at Jericho between the Proto-Urban and Early Bronze cultures. The Proto-Urban is described by different investigators in different terms, by some as Late Neolithic, by others as Chalcolithic of various stages. Certain features of Jericho culture during the Proto Urban or Level VIII (Garstang) reflects Chalcolithic, related to the Chalcolithic at Ghassul. However, the features are few enough to allow the majority of excavators to feel that the Jericho Proto-­Urban culture is still Neolithic in type, and so a gap of some 300 years, resulting from the old evolutionary scale used, has to be inserted between the end of Proto-Urban and Early Bronze I in Jericho, not so much on solid evidence of such a gap, but simply because of the rigid evolutionary terminology. The biblical model, however, not only shortens the time of the necessary gap, if such ever occurred, but also allows a still conservative Neolithic type of culture in Jericho to subsist beside a progressive Chalcolithic culture across the Jordan at Ghassul.

The possibility of contemporaneity was slightly broached by Robert North when he says:

"From the very start, however. certain remote or rare similarities to Ghassul in the Pre-bronze Sultan materials have been noticed, always leaving open the chance that Ghassul could be a contemporaneous local variation due to immigrants."….

He finishes with the statement:

"In any case Ghassul-Jericho comparison confronts us with an enigma still unsolved despite persistent efforts: in face of which there is need of bold innovating scientific hypotheses."….

The biblical model is, in fact, the only reasonable 'bold innovating scientific hypothesis' that will satisfy the demands of this region. I conclude that it is reasonable to suppose that there was no considerable gap between Proto-Urban at Jericho and Early Bronze I, but rather that a conservative Jericho culture did in fact subsist beside a progressing Chalcolithic Ghassul culture across the Jordan River, with a different people in a different place, but at the same time.

The problem with such data as this is that the rigid evolutionary terminology does not facilitate easy bending to allow its adherents freedom to see such cultures as Neolithic and Chalcolithic as contemporary.

We find then, sufficient evidence to hold in question the rigid evolutionary sequential framework of Neolithic to Chalcolithic that has been held for so long. Evidence has been presented to show that there is contemporaneitv of previously claimed sequential Chalcolithic periods, and also contemporaneity between Chalcolithic periods on one hand and Neolithic on the other, certainly in Syria, and possibly also in Jericho and the Jordan Valley. If such is the case, then we have reason to call into question the long time periods and the sequential arrangement of other cultures from Paleolithic right through to the end of the Chalcolithic in the whole of the Middle East. It is much more reasonable to propose a model embracing the `pond ripple' and `mushroom effect' [as Osgood has discussed earlier] against the background of the biblical chronology, which even to this day remains the only written record of claimed history of this period.

[End of quote]

Hi Darrell many thanks for your reply, Sorry I've been a long

time in replying to this email but yes I have been very busy

especially this week as it's the start of the growing season; but

hope we can get back to Sundays some timein the not too distant future.


I've purchased a new book from Waterstones in Stafford by John Milton.

(Paradise Lost). I also read some more stuff from the web of

Herbert W Armstrong's website on the supposed gap theory. They

have some notion that the dinosaurs ruled earth before the

creation of Adam and that some of the dinosaurs were supposedly

recreated in six literal days 6000 years ago.


Dont know where they get these ideas from. However I'm studying a

book by Geoffry Ash on "The Quest for Arthur's Britain", a bit

like some of the google information "E Books on the History of

Britain which I am finding very interesting. Please Darrell let

me know what your new project is as I am quite exited about it.

Must go now . God Bless John

Hi John,


Glad to hear about what you are studying.


I have been in focused study of financial markets.

I have decided to use my knowledge of how time is divided to earn

money for Charity.  - At least I hope.


My son Nick will be getting married in June.


Andy, my son, will be setting up a website for displaying the

papers I have written on Chronology since I am tired or waiting on

the Creation Journal.  Maybe it will be on line by June sometime. 

Otherwise not doing any history research.


This morning I had a thought pop into my mind which you might find



You know how the Hunters (after Babel) seemed to flock to the area

close to the Ice Age Glaciers.  Trier was built right by them.

The French Paris Basin sites are all close to the Glaciers.

 Well, hunting massive herd of wildlife would require a way to

 store the meat.  -- I speculate that they dug Ice Caves for

 storing there kill.  Thus colonies near to the Glaciers would be

 highly desired ( and probably yielded some shelter also).


Hi Darrell yes that is most interesting. The Neanderthal Hunters of

Cichol Gricenchos must have overlapped with the Trier

"Neolithic"coloney who built the city of Trier some 1300 yrs or so

beforeCaesar. (Forget exact date as I need to look at the

industries chart).


Thus as far as waiting for the creation journal to publish your

chronology Darrell; I think they're too hooked up on Larry Pierce's

"Ancient Kingdoms Ammended" but never the less I think that both of

us have the answers in conclusion in terms of archaeological data (

The Paris Basin &c being a most interesting case in point and now

Trier and the ice age glaciers).


 God Bless,


Hi Vern here is what Darrell says about the founding of Trier

(During the Ice Age) and contemporary Palaeolithic hunter gatherers.

The Term here "Mesolithic" is rejected by this author as an evolutionary term.

Thus Palaeolithic and neolithic will suffice quite well to

destinguish between farmers and hunter gatherers. John


Will be looking this afternoon for some more interesting ideas

about King Arthur (Sometimes I think confused with Brutus) John



Hi Darrell I have sent Vern Crisler this email in response to his cecular views. He has'nt responded thus in conclusion we have wun the debate as one can see from the text down below. If you get a minute Darrell could you please send me your chart on what you have accomplished. John


 I think the fact of the matter is Vern that what is called by secular

 archaeologists "The Mesolithic phase; is that they were still Hunter



 Also as you've already seen or noticed from Darrell's text down below,

 is the fact that the Paris Basin sites are close to the glaciers (and

 this after the babel incident in 2191 BC). This shows that

 Palaeolithic hunters overlapped with the Neolithic industries.


 No one doubts that some of the palaeolithic tribes preceded Babel. I

for one dont doubt it; because as we've already seen from my

 industries chart that is based on the ancient chroniclers and Ussher

 that Cichol's coloney was the first to reach Britain 200 years before

 Battle of Magithe with Partholan's Neolithic coloney in Ireland.

 The fact of the matter is that they were in Northern Scotland (Orkney)

 in 2225 BC and that before Babel; and yes they were Neanderthals of

 which I am absolutely confident.

 Did you also know that the coloney of Cichol Gricenchos have also been

 found in Norfolk most notably the "Dogger Lands" from the North Sea?

 Implements and hand axes have been found that match Cichol's People.

 Thus after Babel they built Skara Brae and addopted Neolithic

 civilization with a mixed ecconomey of fishing and hunter gathering

 and I insist they were Neanderthals as Red Ochre Paint is associated

 with the Neanderthal People.

 Thus in conclusion it really must be bourne in mind in this connection

that people degenerated from Neolithic civilization to Palaeolithic or

hunter gathering &c. Noah was thus Neolthic as he planted a vinyard

and used metal as well as stone tools.


There is evidence of this on the Lena River not far from where the arc

landed living in Palaeolithic/Neolthic/ Bronze and Iron time too. John


>On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 8:01 PM, Vern Crisler  wrote:

Not sure why he's rejecting the Mesolithic as it's a well-established

archaeological phase


The author and writer of this supplement wishes to make it clear that
>>>>> while he has allowed for speculation off from his main time line on a
>>>>> hypothetical evolutionary stoneage he cannot in all honesty uphold
>>>>> this concept on the article "Neanderthal/Nephilim".
>>>>> As faras the author is concerned he upholds the idea that the world
>>>>> was created perfect with everything we need in life. From my point of
>>>>> view Gold is mentioned in Genesis chapter 2 and sugess that Adam had
>>>>> metal tools from the begginning perhaps bog iron . Thus there was no need for tools when Adam could pick all the fruit he needed
>>>> Maybe a hoe or an axe. There really would not be any need for metal
>>>> tools up to the time of Tubal Cain who was bourne circa 474 am or
>>>> 3530 BC and was really into metals Bronze and Iron by 3500 BC and was an instructor and artificer and instructor in Bronze and Iron (Mainly for weopons of war)
>>> Thus not much need for metal tools up to this time when Tubal Cain
>>> made everyone conform to the idea of weopons of war.
>>> Cain would have needed metal tools when he tilled the ground perhaps
>>> more than Adam or Abel who was a keeper of sheep etc.
>>> Cain also built a city but became a wanderer when he had murdered his
>>> brother Abel. Here then is the supplement to the chart.
>>> Pre-Flood Chart showing All Metal Industries to the Flood
>>> 4004 BC........................Industries........................Adam
>>> Descovery of Metals..Fruitpicking.......................Cain and Abel
>>> ...............................Tilling the Ground.................Cain
>>> kills Abel and becomes a wanderer then builds city in the land of Nod
>>> East of Eden and names the city after his son Enoch
>>> Cain probaly built his city with iron tools who learned it from
>>> Adam.....Tubal Cain bourne............................................
>>> 3530 BC (Approx).........annomundi 474 (Date estimated by a prof
>>> Hull). Approximately
>>> 3500 BC....... Tubal Cain makes stronger metals of Bronze and Iron
>>> (Ancient Bronze and Iron Industry) and forces everyone to conform
>>> 2468 BC ...............Nephilim Giants come late in the time of Tubal
>>> Cain 120 years before the Flood
>>>2348 BC ........Great Flood of Noah

>>> After the Flood
>>> 2295 BC..............................Earliest World Survey Teams (Not
>>> far from where arc landed on River Leana in Russia
>>> ..................Stone/ Bronze/Iron and steel industries live
>>> simultaneously in same area.

The Cave of the Treasure.

Subject: "The Cave of the Treasure" (Continued)

 Hi Darrell what exactly is the "Cave of the Treasure" and How does it tie in with the archaeology "Of the Time of Abraham"?

 Did these Cananite groups have a diffrent civilization to Egypt

 though contemporary? And more to the point does it correrlate with

 the treasures found by Sir Leonard Wooly? John


>> John,

>> I would assume that the Cananites had a different culture than the

>> Egyptians.

>> They were sea goers and had extensive trade.  Certain techological

>> advantages would not be shared with those they traded with.

However, the Philistines may have originated from Egypt and located

>> near the sea between Canann and Egypt.  Don't equate Philistine to

>> Cananite - it may not be correct.

>> Also, Egyptian rulers (dynasty 12) may not have shared certain

>> technological advantages with their kings of upper and lower Egypt. 

>> Thus, slightly different cultures could exist at the same time.  key

>> word is slightly.

>> Darrell


> That's most interesting Darrell. Thus this so called "Chalcolithic

> culture " as Dr Osgood calls it or in my /your terms was late

> neolithic/copper industry (not excluding some bronze or Iron) was

> simply contemporary with Dynastic Egypt and not as Osgood would have

> us believe "Predynastic" in conclusion a most intersting and logical

> deduction. John


Times of Abraham

Dear John


I think that Abram arrived in Palestine not long after Mizraim (i.e.

Egypt) and his unruly followers left Babel and went to Egypt.

Presumably Mizraim was now dead and his son, Lehabim (or Abimelech), ruled Egypt or part thereof. The classical dynasties had not yet begun.

Enter Abram and Sarai.

Then there occurred a war between the Mesopotamian kings (probably

Nimrod-ites) and the Amorite kings. The Mesopotamians brought to an end the Late Chalcolithic/Ghassul IV phase, but they were sent packing by Abram. This enabled the former Mesopotamian, Lehabim, to move (from

Egypt) into the vacuum in Palestine. He seems to be attested archaeologically (now a new phase) as Narmer. He, or perhaps his son, then unified Egypt, bringing in the 1st dynasty.


If you try to locate the 4th dynasty Khufu to this time, then you will end up in hopeless Khufu-sion. Khufu belongs to the time of Moses. He overlaps with Amenemes I of the 12th dynasty.

See the Moses part of my "Old Kingdom" article at:


The Abraham part of this article is now largely irrelevant.



 Dear John

 Fortunately, Dr. John Osgood's excellent work on the archaeology of

 Abraham leads us, like a train on a collision course, directly into

 NARMER as the Egyptian identity of Ishmael's "Pharaoh", of Isaac's 'Abimelech".

 See my attached article.

> Damien.

Hi Damien; I think the point that Darrell and my self were making is that at the time of Abraham there were two Faroes ruling . If Donovan Courville is correct in placing the Pre-Dynastic period immediately after the flood thus ca 2347 BC to 2188 BC before any colonization by Misraem then the "Chalcolithic period " of Engedi would have to have been contemporaneous with the Early Bronze Industry of Egypt.


Thus what I am respectfully sugesting is; that according to Darrell's sources of information two dynasties ruled Egypt at this time. One was the Pyramid builder Kufu and he ruled Egypt from Memphis so perhaps the other one could well have been Abimalech of the late Neolithic and copper industries.


Chronology:- I don't know if Osgood is using Thiel's chronology.

However he tends to round off his figures but might be using that of Philip Morrow. Having in mind creation history (Of which Mike Gascoigne and Bill Cooper are good examples) I think it is importent from my point of view to traslate Osgood's chronology or Morrow's into Ussherian dates .


On Ussher;s time line (Given to Ussher by the ancient chroniclers) Abraham would be dated annomundi 2008 or 1996 BC; enters Canaan at age

75 thus 1996 BC - 75yrs=1921 BC. Abraham lives another 100 yrs which brings us to 1821 BC. Thus what is interesting here is that there was the war of the "Titan". Nimrod as we know was Osiris . Apparrently if I have got my facts right Queen Semiramis put down a revolt but did'nt entirely succeed.


Chedolamer from Darrell's text down below has Chedolamer trying to take Egypt but was stopped by two dynasties. Thus in conclusion Damien I sugest the Old and Middle Kingdoms overlapped each other for a period of 250 to 290 yrs and could have been overlapped also by some kind of "Predynastic cultue" by Abimalech AND his Philistines and were thus contemporary. John


Post Script :- I ahve read your article on the Times of Abraham and found it very interesting. However where Larry Pierce is concerned on "Newton's Ancient Kindoms Ammended" I will get the coppy from "Answers in Genesis" although I think his work is based on a lot of Greek myth and therefore nonsense. Maybe the same can be said of Prof. Gunnar Heinsohn. John


Hi Darrell; I'll try and keep this email as short as possible

 within the ten minutes you sugested.

 1/ Chronology. Damien Mackey has used Philip Morrow's chronology

 as far as I can gather but Osgood tends to round off his figures

 eg:- I calculated 2035 BC - 175 yrs (Abraham) =1860 BC for

 supposed early dynastic or Menes.

 2 /Ussher has from 2008 am or 1996 BC - 175 yrs=1821 BC (quite

 clearly a diffrence of 39 yrs) so natuiraly I go with Ussher and

 the Ancient chroniclers


3/ Who was Abraham's Faroe? Was it Abimalech as Damien Mackey says it is or rather as he says Genesis says it is.

 4/ Archaeology.

 5 / The Cave of the Treasure revealed socalled "Chalcolithic

 archaeology " in Engedi region. Was it contemporary with EB1

 which I and you would say started by Misraem in 2188 BC.

 6/ I sugest if there were any late Neolithic and copper

 industries in Gassul region they must have been contemporary

 with EB1 in Egypt


 7/ Donovan Courville you and myself insist that the predynastic was before any founding of Egypt Israel etc from 2347 to 2188 BC. 8/ What about this archaeology ? John

 9/. The Naming Game


Post script:- 10/ The four confederate Kings (Chedolamer &c in

 Clash of the Titan also corresponds with the "Times of Abraham"

 These seem to be a diffrent civilization to EB1. John




 1) I have never read Philip M's book on chronology.  Howerver,

 Anstey Chronologists alway refer to it as another one which uses

 their chronology of the Persian Empire.  I do not know if (as with

 Anstey Chronology) it adds years to the period of the Judges (as

 compared to Ussher).


 After critically reviewing Anstey's book, I trust nothing he says. 

 It is so full of persausive logical fallacies, that I would almost call him a CON Artist, if I did not know he was a Christian with

 the best of intentions.  I assume Philip M. was CONed by him just as many other fine Christians are.

 2)  Yes, whenever someone else uses a chronology different than Usshers (which the ancient chroniclers confirm with at least 10 independent paths via 200 or so Triangulations) then they will differ from your Ussherian dates.  The most often used

 difference will be Thieles erroneous chronology which is often 4 to 46 years off for these ancient date.

 If there is a difference, just ask them to translate their dates to Ussherian dates

 3) Abimalech: This is not a common name for any Pharaoh in Manetho

 list or other lists used by modern archeologists.  Pharaoh's had

 many names, you should ask for the name which archeologist

 currently use to identify him by, otherwise it has little meaning -

 unless you play the name game.

 By the way, two Pharaohs existed at Abraham's time.  The Pharaoh

 with power over all of Egypt resided at Memphis and is commonly

 know today as Khufu, the builder of the great Pyramid. 

 Considerable ancient records seem to support this chronological matchup.

 Unfortunately the Mormons also promote this matchup.  The Mormon

 have made many major errors in their matchups, but I believe they

 are correct in this particular case.

 4) let me say that any attempt to correlate evolutionary based archeological industries seems doomed unless one realizes that evolutionary bias rather than reality created these supposed

 progressions.  Creation history should be able to match up with

 archeological sites and artifacts, but these general evolutionary industries will never match up perfectly with creation history

 because they are a result of bias, not reality.


 5) I am unfamilar with the The Cave of the Treasure.

 6) Archeologists match their Industries to their chronology.  Since

 their chronology is so far off and since various dynasties in Egypt

actually overlapped, they have different Industries for supposedly

 different dynasty which actually existed at the same time. For example, the old kingdom and middle kingdom overlapped in tim for 250 to 290 years.  Yet the Industries are supposedly different.

 7)  Good.  Remember that Donovan Courville used Thieles chronology so he is 45 to 46 years off.  Plus he did a terrible job correlating Asshurian chronology.

 8) see item 4) 9) Damien Mackey has a great web site and clearly shows that he is

a real scholar.  Other than for some differences in Chronology, I> only feel he is too quick to identify one historical person with

 another. This is very easy to do and I may have done so also.  The source of most of Newtons Folly is unwarrented name association and poor sources.

 10) "Chedolamer".  In the early 1800's, Rawlingson made a very good

 identification for Chedolamer (I am using you spelling rather than

 looking it up). However, he place him in the wrong Babylonian dynasty.  The war of the Titans

 (or three sons families of Noah) was prolonged becaused they lived

 to old ages.  The inital conflicts occurred right after the Dispersion (2191 BC) and within 27 years Nimrod

 (Ninus) took general control of the World.  The first formal revolt, lead

 by Sidon and his giant sons occurred near the death of Ninus (Osiris) in 2067/2068 BC.

Semiramis put down the revolt and regain control - took about 8 years.


 Yet rebellion was harbor in their minds.  When Ninyas (the last ruler of the world)

 died in 1968/67 BC (ending the second dynasty of Babylon), the rebellion started again.

 It lasted for 33 years before dynasty 4 of Babylon was founded.

>> > Chedolamer wa the second king and ruled over the middle east and pressed towards Egypt, but failed to take it.  However two Egyptian dynasties ended at the battle to stop him.


Hope this helps a little.



>> Hi Darrell Yes that helps tremendously and many thanks for this. Thus

>> if Abraham lived 175 yrs then on Ussherian Chronology Abraham bourn

>> am

>> 2008 annomundi or 1996 BC; then 1996 BC -175yrs=1821 BC. So why the

>> misleading so-called revised chronologies of Thiel Anstey and Philip

>> Morrow when there was absolutely no need to revise these chronologies.

>> The Anstey chronology of 1860 BC is none other than 1821 BC in

>> conclusion. John Post Script:- I would like to say Darrell that

>> creation history and indeed archaeology have most definately given

>> both of us for our interest and satisfaction a very good and exelent

>> match for Britain Ireland and indeed Northern Scotland (Orkney)

>> Meanwhile very good hunting Darrell:- John


> John,



> Glad to hear.


> The alternative chronologies exist in the hundreds.  A few are more

> popular than others.  However, only Ussher's has been independently

> confirmed by many ancient chronicler - pagan chroniclers to boot.


> Note:  Newton's Chronology (since its publication) has found very few

> supporter.  None for the last 150 years to my knowledge until Larry

> translated the book.


> By the way, we have a good start for French history also.  Especially

> those settlement in the Paris basin.


> Darrell


 Dear Mike ; Darrell and Dan;


 I have found Damien Mackey's website quite a challenging one ; However I for my part do not depart from

>> the

>> >> concepts of

>> >> >> young earth

>> >> >> >> creationist although it has to

>> be said

>> >> that Damien

>> >> >> reckons he has an

>> >> >> >> antedeluvian archaeology and

>> thinks the

>> >> Royal

>> >> >> toombs at Ur of the

>> >> >> >> Chaldees were in anticipation of

>> the

>> >> oncoming

>> >> >> flood of Noah and also

>> >> >> >> holds to some of Sir Leonard

>> Wooley's

>> >> finds on

>> >> >> what Damien calls the

>> >> >> >> "Mud Flats.

>> >> >> >>

>> >> >> >> I have insisted that the flood

>> is global

>> >> where as

>> >> >> he seems to think

>> >> >> >> that a flood (global) at the

>> time of Noah

>> >> would

>> >> >> have destroyed

>> >> >> >> everything in it's path which

>> indeed it

>> >> did.I have

>> >> >> been featured on

>> >> >> >> the Amaic website when I clicked

>> the icon

>> >> "North

>> >> >> West Creation " lo

>> >> >> >> and behold I saw some pictures

>> (three of

>> >> them ) of

>> >> >> Neanderthal one of

>> >> >> >> which looks a little like Sir

>> Alan Sugar

>> >> (Almost

>> >> >> his Double.

>> >> >> >>

>> >> >> >> I have two interesting links

>> that you

>> >> might all

>> >> >> like to examine. The

>> >> >> >> links are thus:-

>> >> http:genesisflood.blog.com also

>> >> >> >> http://genesisflood.blog.com/amaic/page/4/ I for my my

>> >> >> part have tried

>> >> >> >> to persuade Damien that the

>> flood was

>> >> global.

>> >> >> Question is does he if

>> >> >> >> he accepts a "Tranquil world

>> wide flood"

>> >> then find

>> >> >> human artifacts.

>> >> >> >>

>> >> >> >> Perhaps I have taken a "dive in

>> the deep

>> >> end". I

>> >> >> don't know. But as

>> >> >> >> you say Darrell and my friend

>> Graham A

>> >> Fisher

>> >> >> says:- It is not

>> >> >> >> unreasonable to speculate on a

>> sequence

>> >> of

>> >> >> cultures (without naming

>> >> >> >> them) from Adam to Tubal Cain

>> (Ancient

>> >> Bronze and

>> >> >> Iron)

>> >> >> >>

>> >> >> >> Can anyone tell me when Tubal

>> Cain became

>> >> an

>> >> >> artificer in Bronze and

>> >> >> >> Iron. Damien reckons between

>> 2500 and

>> >> 2400 BC.

>> >> >> Thus if the giant

>> >> >> >> Nephilim were alreadt there 120

>> yrs

>> >> before the

>> >> >> flood (Thus 2348 BC +

>> >> >> >> 120 yrs before the flood=2468

>> BC) because

>> >> we are

>> >> >> told in Genesis 6

>> >> >> >> verse 1-4 that Man's days on

>> earth shall

>> >> be 120

>> >> >> years by implecation.

>> >> >> >>

>> >> >> >> I cannot speculate too much on

>> the

>> >> Nephelim

>> >> >> although I believe there

>> >> >> >> is a link from Post Flood

>> Neanderthal

>> >> people to

>> >> >> the giants ie Nephilim

>> >> >> >> who were destroyed in the flood

>> of Noah

>> >> through

>> >> >> maybe the genes of

>> >> >> >> Ham. As I say and as the text in

>> Genesis

>> >> makes

>> >> >> absolutely clear that

>> >> >> >> the Nephilim were there before

>> the flood

>> >> and also

>> >> >> after that (ie after

>> >> >> >> the flood as well. However

>> Darrell I

>> >> don't know

>> >> >> what you think about

>> >> >> >> the idea.

>> >> >> >>

>> >> >> >> But if I were to draw up a

>> speculative

>> >> "Industries

>> >> >> chart" from Adam to

>> >> >> >> Tubal Cain I believe that the

>> creation

>> >> model for

>> >> >> some of these

>> >> >> >> cultures would ownly allow me to

>> go from

>> >> 4004 BC

>> >> >> as far as Tubal Cain

>> >> >> >> ca annomundi 474 or 3530 BC

>> having in

>> >> mind the

>> >> >> antedeluvien

>> >> >> >> civilization was very advanced.

>> In

>> >> conclusion

>> >> >> therefore it is most

>> >> >> >> importent to remember that Adam

>> was not

>> >> a

>> >> >> hunter-gatherer so by

>> >> >> >> implecation before the forging

>> of Bronze

>> >> and Iron

>> >> >> by implecation what

>> >> >> >> tools or materials would have

>> been

>> >> available.

>> >> >> >>

>> >> >> >> Of course there would have been

>> wood or

>> >> stone. (We

>> >> >> are also told that

>> >> >> >> the gold of the four rivers was

>> good in

>> >> that land

>> >> >> ) so perhaps Adam

>> >> >> >> came into posession of Gold as

>> well

>> >> before the

>> >> >> forging of metals ie

>> >> >> >> before the timeof Tubal Cain ca

>> 3530 BC.

>> >> I am also

>> >> >> sugesting that the

>> >> >> >> aggricultural groups may have become Hunter-gatherers after they regressed. Maybe for a while untill Cainbuilt his city; He earth  (This also Therefore Cain I sugest became a

>> >> huntergatherer untill the time he built Enoch City. JOhn


>> >> To: "Dan Janzen" <janzen200@yahoo.com>

>> >> Date: Thursday, December 9, 2010, 11:21 AM The Simple Answer to

>> >> your question is because I am interested in ancient history and

>> >> the diffrent industries or

>> technologies

>> >> as you

>> >> like to refur to it that have been unearthed by archaeologists and

>> >> will continue to show an interest in it.

>> >>

>> >> Darrell knows that I am well in the YEC's camp yet

>> you for

>> >> some reason

>> >> (that ownly you know) accuse me of being out of it

>> on the

>> >> fringes. And

>> >> that is total nonsense,

>> >>

>> >> I dont know if you have been following the studies

>> that

>> >> Darrell and

>> >> myself have put into the history of Britain and

>> Ireland

>> >> simply by

>> >> looking at my charts Or you're  not interested in

>> them

>> >> so need to

>> >> criticise for the sake of it.

>> >>

>> >> You now turn round and say there was no such thing

>> as

>> >> technology

>> >> cultures even after the flood. Then in that case

>> you cannot

>> >> believe

>> >> that regressive societies made stone tools such as

>> the

>> >> Neanderthals.

>> >>

>> >> Just becauise people groups built cities does not

>> mean

>> >> necesserily

>> >> that they did'nt use stone tools; which is

>> evidently

>> >> something you

>> >> deny when archaeological evidense (some of it from

>> Jericho)

>> >> show that

>> >> they used both stone and metal tools.

>> >>

>> >> The same is true of the early survey teams both

>> stone tools

>> >> (as

>> >> Darrell has said and in some ways you seem to be

>> in

>> >> opposition to

>> >> Darrell after recomending me to follow his

>> chronology

>> >> which  I have

>> >> followed and used to the latter especially and I

>> aggree

>> >> with you on

>> >> this that he has the best research to-day.

>> >>

>> >> It is also possible that some people groups built

>> if you

>> >> like cities

>> >> but posessed ownly stone tools; yet you are in

>> veremint

>> >> opposition to

>> >> this view. W hy? W hen i mention the subject of

>> Cain it is

>> >> almost as

>> >> though (as far as you are concerned that I have no

>> right to

>> >> dicuss

>> >> cultural sequences as if the subject was "off

>> limmets" or a

>> >> forbidden

>> >> subject which if it is then is a little bit small

>> minded on

>> >> your part.

>> >> I'm sorry to have to sound critical of you in this

>> instance

>> >> and you

>> >> can critisise if you like the studies that Darrell

>> and

>> >> myself have

>> >> been doing in ancient history. I would also

>> challenge you

>> >> to prove

>> >> that it is wrong. John

>> >>

>> >> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 3:22 AM, Dan Janzen <janzen200@yahoo.com>

>> >> wrote:

>> >> > Why do you feel a need to speculate on

>> cultures

>> >> preflood?  What purpose does it serve?

>>  Obviously there

>> >> was no such thing as technology cultures or ages

>> before or

>> >> after the flood. We have been going over and over

>> this, and

>> >> over and over this for a long time and it puzzles

>> me why you

>> >> keep insisting on talking about it.

>> >> >

>> >> > If Cain built a city then he used iron tools

>> and if so

>> >> then there really was nothing to focus on in terms

>> of

>> >> advancement in technology.  Tubal Cain was

>> obviously

>> >>  someone renowned for his skills and we shouldn't

>> read too

>> >> much into this as far as technology advance.  The

>> idea of

>> >> technology advance is neomodern one of the last

>> 400 years,

>> >> since technology had almost always been in

>> regression (prior

>> >> to 400 years ago) since the "Golden Ages" of

>> civilizations.


> I think it is been fairly well proven that stone can

>> not be cut with stone tools.  Groups that did not have access to

>> metal could not dress stones and therefore were unlikely to have

>> built cities.

>> >

>> > I did not say you are on the fringe but that you were

>> discussing views of those on the fringe.  The whole issue of the

>> strata at Ur has been settled long ago.

>> >

>> > I am saying that there were no specific industries as

>> tied to chronology. Advanced groups always coexisted along side very

>> culturally degraded groups. People groups had industries but even

>> that is not well defined since people groups always traded for what

>> they did not produce so only the more isolated remote decultured

>> groups degraded to the point of purely stone industry.  Trade was

>> very global so one had to be very very isolated to have no access to

>> metals.  Even ancient Africans were experts in working metal.

>> >

>> > In addition, our assessment of ancient technology is

>> greatly biased by the fact that only in the driest of climates does

>> iron last for more than a few hundred years.


>> Dan I've got no problem with that and I never tried to tie industries

>> or cultures technology (call it what you will) to chronology. All I

>> am saying is that if Darrell gives me a date for such and such people

>> group at a certain time and at what ever place; Then I am going to

>> use the chronology he sugests. So let's be absolutely clear about

>> that idea.


>> Yes I aggree Cain probably used Iron to build his city. He probably

>> used stone tools as well. In fact that is exactly what Damien Mackey

>> has on his revised flood charts. I took an interest in his website so

>> I decided to have a look at it.


>> So ok there maybe some things we don't aggree on and just as much

>> again that we do agrree on. No one's perfect. Darrell has also

>> pointed out that Ussher was'nt right on everything and nor am I.

>> But at least

>> we are using Darrell's recomended Ussherian chronology from the

>> ancient chroniclers and I'd never go back to Larry Pierce as I think

>> he has an attitude problem with people who dissaggree with him and

>> also if I disaggree with someone I'll be up front about it.


>> I would however point out that Cain after he murdered his brother

>> Abel was condemned to be a wanderer going in fear of other people. So

>> it is just possible is'nt it; that before he built his city he became

>> a hunter gatherer. (I am not insisting that he was all I am saying is

>> it is at least possible. John


> That seems well written and expressed.


> Obviously Damien is completely "out to lunch" or "off his rocker".

> "So, according to Mr. Mackey, the Jordan was the single source river

> which disappeared somewhere underground, only to reemerge as the

> Tigris, Euphrates, and the source of the Nile. What evidence does Mr.

> Mackey have for this shocking assertion? He doesn’t have any. He

> merely states that identifying the Jordan as the source of the other

> great rivers is “a matter for hydrographers to investigate.” But he is

> mistaken. Having made such an assertion, the evidence for the Jordan

> as the source river is actually Mr. Mackey’s “matter” to investigate

> and substantiate. As a skeptic, I simply cannot take his say-so or

> accept his speculations and await someone else to confirm his hunches.

> To be sure, he quotes from Professor Yahuda’s work explaining this

> ancient belief in an interconnecting underwater source system, but

> that is all it was: a belief. As Professor Yahuda explains, quoted

>  in Mr. Mackey’s article..."


> Also wanted to mention that it is my belief that the Nephilim were

> most likely not demon-human hybrids but rather men of renown who were

> remembered for their accomplishments and perhaps for being "patriarch

> like".  It is possible that the preflood people were larger, taller as

> a whole.  As the size of people gradually decreased over time, it must

> have been noteworthy the remembrance of the preflood people as being

> renown and being larger, particularly as Noah and his family lived

> hundreds of years into the post flood era.  So in the mythology that

> persisted at the time any giant people after the flood were compared

> to the preflood "race".  And we must remember that the spies report

> was false, probably based on that myth.


> I think that we must remember our objectives.  We should be

> demonstrating truth and I and other Biblical scholars who recognize

> the error of evolution are working to point people away from the error

> of gradual progression of technology to the regression of technology

> after the flood tied to man's immorality and improper governance (lack

> of justice).  There were brief hiccups in this downward regression

> when a nation was able to bring a temporary realm of stability through

> increasing justice or morality.


Yes Dan there are certain things that I find confusing especially his article on Amelech though interesting of which I'll send you details and the link tommorrow on Sunday. Maybe you'd like to do some instant messaging with me on yahoo instant messenger like me and Darrell?

One interesting thing you mention is cities being built with Iron tools for dressing big stones. Did you know for example that the Druids forbade the use of metal tools for dressing stones such as megaliths for stonehenge &c But although a mycenian bronze dagger was found at stonehenge it would hardly be used for dressing stones for religeuos purposes and/or functions etc.

Yes I do believe Cain had some metal tools but I also believe he had stone tools as well. One interesting thing I'd like to mention:-There was Gold in the land of Havila and the land of Cush .

Genesis says the gold of that land was good. The conundrem is why is there still gold found today in that particular region? That is the mystery.

As for Nephilim Denton reckons (Neanderthal/Nephilim but that might be speculation I don't know) There are sources of extra biblical evidense that fallen anngels married the Daughters of Cain from the book of Jubilees and the books of Adam and Eve also Enoch. It's interestingthat Dr Jack Cuozzo mentions that Neanderthal reached old age at five hundred years old. Also Noah reached an AGE of 900 yrs was it ? or something like that so it may be possible GA Fisher my friend is a yc and he thinks also that the Nephilim were half breed humans through sexual relations with spirit beings, I sugest this be investigated. John


Was Abimelech Pre-dysnastic?

JXF and DW

>> Hi Darrell from what I can gather then is that my deductions lead me

>> to assume that Kufu reigned in Egypt at the same time as King

>> Abimalch assuming that there was a late "Predynastic" King ruling

>> Palastine and the Engedi region ruling or overlapping at the same

>> time as Dynastic Egypt with Kufu reigning in Memphis and at the same

>> time as the "Philistines " under king Abimalech ruling a part of Egypt there of.


>> Thus it would seem from this king list that Joseph's Pharoe Amenamet

>> succeeded Kufu after Abraham had repulsed the other confederate Kings

>> of the Ammorites in "Battle of the Titan" However I may be wrong; but

>> this for me seems to be the correct choice thus keeping the ancient

>> chroniclers happy and also finding some substance for Dr Osgood's

>> "The Times of Abraham " if looked at without any evolutionary bius.

>> Thus I think in conclusion I have tried to show that I am using the

>> "Judgement of Soloman. What do you reckon Darrell?

> What reference speaks of King Abimalch - I have no idea who that

> translates too.


> Secular chronology speaks of Predynastic Kings - but Menes was the

> first king and the first king of the first dynasty.  No kings ruled

> Egypt before him.  In reality there are no Predynastic kings as

> supposed (assumed) by secular chronology, since the first dynasty

> generally starts from the founding of Egypt, not from the Unification

> of Egypt.


> A key to understanding Egyptian chronology is understanding that

> Mizraim's (Mene's) sons founded 7 city states (2 in Libya and 5 in

> Egypt) at the same time that Mizraim's founded Thinis.   27 years

> later (2161 BC) Mizraim united all these city states together (I

> assume under Nimrod's overall rule).  This is when Pharaoh or great

> king - over all Egypt started.


> However, each city state had a king from time of the founding of Egypt

> (and it appears that Heracleopolis may have been founded 2189 BC

> shortly before Thinis 2188 BC).  They continued to have a king over

> each city state (only 4 city states after the Unification) up until

> the reorganization by Sesostris III (12th dyn).

> Many of these kings where not listed until events brought them to

> influence on a wider scale.

> However, Manetho's list is just a list of these kings of these city

> states with Thinis listed first, Memphis second, etc.  Yet all ruling

> contemporarily.  At the time of the Famine some 5 dynasties overlapped

> at the same time.


> Darrell


> >> John,


 Finally I just looked up who Abimalech was so I would know what you  are talking about.


> >> If I recall correctly, you said that DM suggested that Abimalech

> >> was the Pharaoh which Abraham meet.  I see no justification for

> >> such a conclusion, nor any hint of predynasty.

 I think DM has a tendancy to too easily equate people.  Just

> >> because Abraham deceived Pharaoh in Gen. 12 and deceived Abimalech in Gen. 20, (may suggest a

> >> possibility) but does not justify equating them.  The verses seem to be separated in time and

> >> they clearly specify different locations.  Unless we have very

> >> clear evidence for equating people, it is best to leave them as

> >> separate individuals until clear evidence is found.


> >> Key to Newtons thesis is the equation of Osiris to Sesoos to Shishank.

> >>  My research show

> >> that the ancients chroniclers clearly identify these as three

> >> different people.  But Newton, who certainly read the chroniclers,

> >> throws the distinctions out and says that since each is said to

> >> have conquered the middle east, they must all be the same person.

> >> [Like where else did they have to invade? - it is certainly

> >> reasonable the three pharaoh's invaded the middle east in 1,500

> >> years of history.]  Then Newton combines it with Greek Myth (based

> >> on Egyptian reality 1000 years before that time) and comes up with

> >> fantasy chronology.


 Even the quote that Newton uses to suggest that Osiris and Sesoos

 (Sesostris III) were not the far apart in time clearly states they

 were two different people.


 We must be very cautious about equating two different people.




>>  Reply |john hext-fremlin to white_darrell show details Jan 15 (1

> >> day ago)


> >> As far as I can tell Darrell this philistine king can in mo way be

> >> predynastic as I am quite happy to accept your history of Egypt

> >> correrlating with anient chroniclers &c and of course Dr Donovan

> >> Courville in which the evidence as I see it is overwhelming. I

> >> sugest the ammorites or philistines might have had a diffrent

> >> civilization to the Egyptiens although I would'nt like to steak my

> >> life on it . John

> > Hi Darrell I am enclined to aggree totaly with your conclusions that

> > Abimalech and Pharoe are or could be two diffrent people in time

> > place and location untill evidence conclusively proves otherwise so

> > maybe nothing too much should be read into Damien Mackey's "Naming

> > Game". By the way Darrell my conclusions on Dr Osgood are that he is

> > a cecular "Biblical" Chronologist Thus in conclusion the two simply

> > do not mix together. Was Osgood correct about the fall being 31 yrs

> > after creation? John



You asked "Was Osgood correct about the fall being 31 yrs after creation?"

Obviously, we don't know for sure.  I believe I saw a date given in the book of Jubilees, but even that would be suspect since it stands alone as only one witness.


I think those who expected Jesus to return in 1996 to 2000 based their projections on 6,000 years from creation and 2000 years from Christ's birth.

Since that is obviously wrong.  The next 6000 year date to pick is from the fall.

Suggesting Christ was about 30/31 years old when his ministry started yields about 2028 AD for his return.  To keep the 4000 years consistent they then assume that the fall was 30/31 years after the creation.


But do we use Christ's ministry or Christ's death?  Additionally the disagreement is significant with 26 to 29 AD for Christ's Ministry and  29 to 34 AD for his death.

At this point I am not sure which is the best fit to the Chroniclers, but it appears that roughly 28 AD was the start of Christ' Ministry and either 29 or 30 AD was his death.  Vast amounts of research is available on this topic.


Even if we knew the above, the 4000 years and 6000 years are just assumptions.

I think they are nice assumptions and hope they work, but they do not hold any more weight than the book of Jubilee which may be passing on the true tradition or just another fabrication by man.