|Was there a Gap?||The last British Neanderthals?||Catastrophism
and Cave Men
|Cave Men in Historic Times||The giant race
of the Formorians
|Miscellaneous||Links||Division in the days of Peleg 2247 BC|
|Longevity of the Patriarchs||Building Stonehenge||Neanderthal origins?||Towards a new Chronology||After the Flood||A stone age find by the Author.||Genesis "X Files"|
DW TO JXF
PARTHELON'S OCCUPATION OF IRELAND
You asked about people in Ireland before parthalon and mentioned the Kimball
believe there were.
In reviewed the Annals of Clonmacnoise, the Four Masters, the Chronicon
Scotorum, and the Irish version of Nennius, I found that each agreed that
Parthalon was the first to occupy Ireland after the flood. In reading the
composite of all Irish materials compiled by Geoffrey Keating, he stated the
same. However, Keating added that some authors (without mentioning names)
said that Adhna discovered Ireland in 2208 BC, but did not stay (or return).
Then other authors state that Ciocal, son of Niel, was in that area for
200 years before the battle with Parthalon (again starting about 2208 BC (in
context with the text used)) living off fish and fowl.
Since we have four ancient texts that all agree that Parthalon was the first
to occupy Ireland, it is best to accept their testamony. These other
(unknown) authors, should be considered less reliabile.
Of the four sources, the Chronicon Scotorum and the Four Masters both
mention a battle 10 years after the arrival of Parthalon.
Speculating on this, and other comments, the following may explain these
events in terms of the above information.
1) Parthalon arrived about 2035 BC (2 witnesses +) and no other humans
2) A battle occurred about 2025 BC.
3) Ireland was discovered about 140 years after the flood (about 2208 BC)
by Adhna (who did not stay or colonize) but returned to Babylon.
4) A band of Hunter/Gathers roamed a wide area of NW Europe (Ciocal) who
infrequently camped in Ireland during a period of about 200 years (rounded
off) before the battle (2225 to 2025 BC). Since we have two abouts, a
compromise would suggest (2216 BC to 2025 BC), with a discovery in 2216 BC.
5) When the band returned to Ireland to hunt and fish, they found
Parthalon's colony and conflict arose. It would seem improbable that they
existed side by side for 10 years, if another froup had inhabitanted
Ireland when Parthalon arrive, conflict would have been nearly immediate.
Nor would all four records state that it was unoccuppied.
I found all the records to have much the same information in them, but with
some conflicts also.
JXF TO DW
Darrell although Partholan was the first colonist of Ireland there was one
>tradition that says when Partholan arrived with his neolithic coloney and
>brought the Oxen with them they found the Formores already there and that
>this "was the tradition " or memory of a "mesolithic" Hunter gatherer group
>who lived on "Fowling and Fishing" and had arrived 200 years before and
>lived on "Tory (Torinez ) Island" (Could this have been arround 2247 BC
>during the world survey?) and fought the battle of Magithe but this was in
>2025 BC. Yet when we get to Nemed there is another tradition that says they
>were Mariners from Africa and if these were the Phoenicians I would prezume
>they had the EB1 industry from Mesopotamia if they were indeed Nimrod's
>men. So Could both traditions be true? Maybe you can evaluate this for me.
>Charles Kimball insists they arrived before Partholan (Although he was the
DW TO JXF
I often find that seemingly contradictory records occur when the ancient
chroniclers misplace an event. A lot of Irish material has contradictions
in it. However, there is so much material, that careful review allows us to
determine which is correct.
I have recently seen a text which suggest that this battle may have been
fought much latter. What needs to be done is to review each of the texts
carefully and fit them together. Maybe we can make sense of them, but
sometimes just don't have the right information to do so.
It is unlikely that both are true.
Could you send me a reference for the finding them there at the time
Possibly a link to an online version of the reference.
Mike : Darrell and Dan:- First let me say there are two traditions about
>the Fomorians from the encyclopedia "wikipedia" (Interesting Link)
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians (I'm not sure whether the fomoian
>bit is spelt with a small "f" or capital "F" Best to try both options) and
>click on the link. Keating reports a tradition that the Fomorians were led
>by King Ciocal who arrived in Ireland (Tory Island) 200 years before
>Partholan arrived in 2035 BC. Could this be a tradition of Hunter gatherers
>who lived by "Fowling " and Fishing and if they arrived at the outpost
>shall we say of Tory Island; could they have got there about 2247 BC?
>Keating reports that this coloney was wiped out by plague (ie the
>mesolithic industry) but is it possible they fought the battle later in
>2025 BC when they were all killed by Partholan and his people. I think this
>is the most likely explanation however when we come to the time of Nemed
>another tradition is reported that they were "sea fairers from Africa
>(Carthage?). Perhaps this sect of Formores had the Bronze Industry. But can
>any one evaluate it for me. John
Ireland I have been informed by creation historian Darrell K white was
discovered 140 years after the flood in 2208 BC and there were hunter gatherers
in Northwest Eorope at this time but did not colonise Ireland as Partholan was
the first two witnesses Plus. Ciocal son of Niel referred to by some writers
discovered Ireland with his band od mesolithic industry hunter gatherers who
infrequently camped in Ireland before the battle of Magithe in 2025 BC when they
the formorians returned to Ireland to hunt and fish they found Partholan already
there so conflict broke out immediately. It is interesting to note in this
connection that the Azzilians came from North Africa combined with the
Maglemosian/Tardenoisian flint industries although the mesolithic peoples made
extensive use of bone and reindeer horn so in this connection it would be wise
for us to stay with the original historic research. JohnHXF Author
MF to JXF
Darrell White's scenario for Partholan and the
Formorians sounds quite plausible, reconciling
as it does apparently conflicting accounts.
You are probably wise to have put the association
with Neanderthals on the shelf for now, although
one cannot forget the Swanscombe skull. Regarding
geology, a Dr. von Peters notified me recently of
an expedition now on its way to investigate a hole
in the ocean floor crust between South America and
Africa that covers hundreds of square miles. Some
comentators have said it challenges the current
theory of how the crust forms, so I am interested
as you can imagine. By the way, your new email
account with googlemail is coming in loud and clear.
JXF to MF
Dear Mike yes I aggree with Darrell on this matter; so much so in fact that
I get the feeling that he is indeed "The Man with the Dates". It's like Dan
Janzen says:= Darrell can sniff out ancient history like a "Bloodhound" and
has done his homework better than I have as regards the old industries table
for Britain and Ireland. I am revising at the moment Mr Donald A Mackenzie's
"Ancient Man in Britain" and chapter 7 "Ancient Mariners reach Britain seems
to corroborate what Darrell has been saying all allong. These Hunter
gatherers under the leadership of Ciocal can be identified with the
mesolithic industry and they came in what Mr Mckenzie calls "The Transition
period" allthough they did'nt colonize but came to Ireland on and off to
hunt and fish so I'd go with the date of 2208 BC 140 after the flood for the
descovery of Ireland by the formores, and it's interesting to note in this
conection that the combined mesolithic industries are called by
archaeologists Maglemosian Tardenoisian and Azilian from North Africa and I
think the Azilians can be identified with the formores because some of them
came over in Long ships as identified by Mr mckenzie. Anyway Mike I'm glad
my new account is coming in loud and clear to you and as for the Swanscombe
scull that needs some investigating. If Mike your theory about the crust of
the earth is rite then it could easily have happened before Babel in the
days of Peleg in 1757 annomundi and 22477 BC and that would challenge the
current way of thinking on the way the crust of the earth was formed and
most certainly the evolutionary uniformitarian idea. I have'nt got round yet
to drawing up an industries table for Egypt &c but it will be done when I
get a bit more time with the start date for EB1 in 2188 BC ie Egypt and
Caanan; meanwhile it's great to hear from you and inconclusion :- "The truth
is out there" in "The Deep Mist " of "The Genesis "X" Files" Good Hunting
JXF to DJ
John Hext-Fremlin wrote:
Dan now is'nt that interesting. Refuring back to the email "Partholan" which
Darrell so very kindly sent me in Germany; that Ireland was descovered but
not colonised by the formores in 2208 BC 140 years after the flood and their
leader was a son of Niel and they were a hunter gatherer band that was in
North Western Europe at the time. Now where Charles Kimball gets the notion
they were Neanderthals I don't know and we probably will never know and that
is why I am all the more convinced that Darrell has done his home work
correctly and further more I think my new Industries table for Britain and
Ireland stnds in much better stance than the old one. John
DJ to JXF