The Giant Race of the Formorians
|Home||The Formorians were a race of giants
who according to folklore of Ireland
frequented river banks lakes and the sea shore. According to
http://www.rootsweb.com/~irluie2/history/oldulster.htm on page 3 of 4 they
supposedly came in 6000 BC but for our purposes here we have to remember to
bring the date forward to 2520 AM or 1484 BC in historic times not long
after the exodus from Egypt of the Israelites. They came to Ireland at the
same time as Parthelon's Neolithic colony and both did battle together.
Their stronghold was on Tory Island where a lot of Mesolithic flint tools
have been found and so are therefore associated with the Mesolithic
industry. The author is of the view that they were advanced Neanderthals of
Hermitic stock and so were therefore primarily hunter gatherers who in the
winter when they were hard pressed raided the farmsteads of the
agriculturalists. Peter Beresford Ellis's dictionary of Celtic mythology
has them arrive at the same time as Partholan and his Neolithic colony on
page 100 of his work. This in all probability was at or near the end of the
ice age and they and the Parthelonian Neolithic industry people hunted the
Aurochs, a giant oxen or buffalo, and possibly even the mammoth and
In all probability the ice age lasted altogether
has proposed that the ice age on his model of things started about 3500 years
ago which is not far off for my timeline for Britain and Ireland. It is
End notes and references: It will also be noted that the Mesolithic
|The last British Neanderthals?|
|The Colonisation of Ireland|
|Catastrophism and Cave Men|
|Cave Men in Historic Times|
|Was there a Gap?|
|Chronology of Neolithic Man|
|Creation to the Romans|
WHO WERE THE FORMORIANS?
Correspondence on the Formorians.
You are right Dan about the formores having been driven out of britain
What skeletal evidence is claimed by Mr. Kimball that would be
Dan we did discuss the probability that the formores could have been Neanderthals although be it advanced ones with a "mesolithic industry " on Tory Island (perhaps as well as Britain). If you have a look at the "Celtic Dictionary of British mythology" I believe it's on page 100 middle paragraph; it says that the Formorians arrived in Ireland at the same time as Partholan. I don't know if you have any records of what industries Brutus had but for my money I've put Bronze on the table and I associate Partholan with Copper and stone implements as well as maybe Leg irons&c for horses so I went with the best information available on Mr. Kimball's recommendation
Communications between jxf and DAN JANZEN
PICTS AND FORMORIANS?
Totem poles may be traced back to Japan and are more common on the Pacific side of the states as a result. Did you have them in Scotland also?
Mike seems to think Craig has some good arguments for Canaanite origins for some of the "New World" tribes. I have found it interesting to note that Marco Polo was told that Sythians and Tarters lived on the other side of the Bering Straight. This is probably the best clue that I have found as to the origins of the majority of those in the "New World".
Now weren't the Formorians pirates or live by pirating? Many, if not most of the early pirates had connections with the New World. Some think that the Formorians when driven from England and Ireland actually settled in the New World. I am not sure of this.
I am not sure how you break this up into different "industries". There may have been a metal of choice or metals for which they had technology which became prominent in a cultural group but everyone must have traded and acquired a fair amount of metals from other cultures. At any one time there would have existed stone age cultures whose iron implements are now rusted to the point of non-existence and whose bronze and copper implements are just plain ignored by mainstream archeologists or are classified as bronze age, even though the culture did not have the technology but just traded for it.
Dan isn't it interesting that as you say the formores lived by "pirating". Isn't this exactly what the neanderthals ***THAT IS AN ASSUMPTION THAT YOU CAN NOT BACK UP--YES THERE WERE DECULTURED PEOPLE BUT I AM NOT SURE THAT NEANDERTHAL WERE NEARLY AS DECULTURED AS THEY ARE ASSUMED TO BE AND THERE IS NO WAY TO MAKE THE LINK--WE STILL NEED TO FIGURE OUT WHO THEY WERE AND THE WORK DONE BY JACK CUZZO IS THE BEST SO FAR AND I DO NOT THINK YOU CAN PROGRESS MUCH BEYOND WHAT HE HAS DONE WITHOUT BECOME AS KNOWLEDGEABLE AS HIM***did as mentioned in the book of Job; and indeed is it not possible that the mesolithic hunter gatherers (which according to the page I have here) raided the farmsteads of the agriculturalists and that is indeed what Donald A Mckenzie says of them in his book "Ancient man in Britain". ***HERE IT IS POSSIBLE TO SEE THAT THE PICS OR FORMORIANS WERE PROBABLY COEXISTING AND ONE RAIDED THE OTHER--IF ONE DOES GOOD HOMEWORK AND IS UP ON BILL COOPER'S WORK YOU CAN GET A GOOD IDEA WHO THESE PEOPLE WERE--EXACTLY AS YOU HAVE STATED BELOW***This is exactly what the formorians were; they were mesolithic industry people living alongside Partholan and arriving in Ireland and for that matter Britain at the same time as Partholancontemporary with the neolithic/chalcolithic industries (Please note not ages--VERY GOOD!). Peter Beresford Ellis in his book "Dictionary of Celtic Mythology" (Page 100 paragragh 5) has them arrive in Ireland at the same time as Partholan. Given the chronology of Ancient Europe by Prof. Gunnar Heinsohn of Neanderthal man arriving in Europe in 1500 BC this can be no mere coincidence. Because my research reveals about the same date. That is cave men in historic times in annomundi 2520 and 1484 BC ***i AM STILL NOT SURE WHAT YOU HAVE TO BASE THESE DATES ON--WHY NOT A DATE RANGE INSTEAD OF EXACT DATES. PEOPLE IN THE CREATIONIST COMMUNITY ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY UNLESS YOU HAVE AMPLE EVIDENCE OF THAT EXACT DATE***which is the date for the arrival in Ireland of Partholan***YES THAT CAN BE BACKED UP BY BILL'S EXCELLENT WORK***. If Dan you get a minute I'd like you to turn to the book by Beresford Ellis and go to page 100 paragragh 5***I DO NOT HAVE A COPY***. Also I'd like you to turn to this interesting link: http://www.rootsweb.com/~irluie2/history/oldulster.htm and according to this evidence also backs up in my view the evidence given by Mr Charles S Kimball. Remember that the date of 6000 BC tha they give is unacceptable and I reject it but the date is therefore brought forward to 1484 BC. Please have a look at this page (3 of 4) paragraphs 2; 5 and 6 and I think you will agree with me on this score but then again you might not. ***YOU ARE PROBABLY RIGHT***You talk about the Formores living by pirating and when they were thrown out of Britain by Brutus you talk about them going to Canada AND America. Maybe they did and what a good deduction this is for they could have become some of the red indian tribes with totem poles that we were discussing but they also went to Ireland again after being thrown out of Britain by Brutus***DIDN'T THEY INVADE WHEN THE IRISH WERE WEAK AS A RESULT OF A PLAGUE BUT THEY REPEALED THE INVASION. THAT IS WHY BILLS SOURCE BOOK IS CALLED "BOOK OF INVASIONS-CHRONICLING ALL THE INVASIONS OF IRELAND". You will find that the mesolithic ie the formorians lived along river banks according to Irish folklore and lakes. Partholan drove the formores back to Tory Island where some of their mesolithic flint implements have been found. I think that this proves conclusively that the formores were hunter gatherers and cavemen (***IT WAS UNCOMMON FOR PEOPLE TO LIVE EXCLUSIVELY AS CAVEMEN UNLESS THEY WERE VERY DECULTURED---MOST OF THE EVIDENCE WE HAVE SHOWS THEM LIVING IN CAVES MORE AS TEMPORARY SHELTERS FOR RECENT IMMIGRANTS OR HUNTING PARTIES AND AT TIMES WINTER HABITATION OR SPIRITUAL RETREAT CENTERS. MY ANCESTORS USED CAVES DURING THE WINTER AND AS A MEETING AREA AND THEY ARE STILL USED TODAY FOR THAT REASON***interacting in historical times with the civilized world and living contemporaneously with the metal working tribes of Britain and I would maintain that this is a fairly safe and sound deduction and inference. Please read this page Dan as the paper is only here in this connection used for research purposes only. John. I READ IT.
FORUM POSTS ON THE FORMORIANS BY JXF
The Book of Jubilee web site (link) I gave you put links to other web sites
and books. At this point, I only have confidence in the historical
information in the Book of Jubilees - be cautious about any of the other
From: "John Hext-Fremlin"
Subject: RE: Fomores
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 21:45:21 +0000
>Thanks once again for this Darrell. I have found two interesting links
>pages that I am reading at the moment appart from Dan's paper on ufos which
>are all very interesting and of particular interest is the one on the
>"Watchers" "Book of Enoch" incorperated into the book of "Jubilees". I
>will get back to you on this one Darrell because it is an "Anglo Israelist"
>paper on the tribe of Dan and also the Formorians and it mentions
>"Phoenician Formorians" as a matter of profound interest. Here it is
>http://www.ensignmessage.com/archives/tracingdan.html; You know the tower
>you mention Darrell; "Well that was on Tory Island the Formore "Base camp"
>from where they launched their attacks. There are alot of other traditions
>about the formores. One says they were a "Hunter Gatherer group" whom
>Partholan found already in Ireland when he landed and then the Battle of
>Magithe started but I would have difficulty with that idea. We also have
>the problem of "The displaced Natives of Britain " whom Bill Cooper
>mentions in "After the Flood" so why then does Charles Kimball think they
>were the "Last Neanderthals " in Europe" which he clearly believes were
>caiananites although be it decultured cainanites. I have also found
>evidense that stone tools have been descovered by archaeologists on Tory
>>From: "Darrell White" :
>>Subject: RE: Fomores
>>Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 20:52:02 +0000
>>Dan and John,
>>All we really know from the 2 quotes I sent are that the formores were
>>mariners and decendants of Ham. This allows both Egypt and Canaan a
>>From: Dan Janzen
>>To: Darrell White
>>Subject: RE: Fomores
>>Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 20:31:20 -0800 (PST)
>>I would suggest that they may have been more of a proto-Phonecian group or
>>Canaanite group or may have included other Hamitic peoples that segregated
>>from other Hamitic peoples very early on. These peoples could have
>>settled very distant lands in the earliest times after the flood,
>>contributing genetics to the Native Americans, British Isles, etc. What
>>do you think Darrell?
>>Darrell White wrote: John, Here is
>>another quote I found today from the Irish version of the Historia
>>Britonum of Nennius. http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100028/index.html
>> p. 45 (right side margin) "It was these men that defeated in a great
>>battle the mariners, i. e. the Fomorians, so that they fled from them into
>>their tower," 1) The mariners = the Fomorians. Since we ID the mariners
>>as the Phoenicians (Decendance of Sidon in particular), then the Fomorians
>>must have been of Canaan, son of Ham. Darrell
From: "John Hext-Fremlin"
Subject: RE: Fomores
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 19:22:17 +0000
Many thanks for that Darrell. If they were infact the Phoenicians
then they were a bronze using people who came to exploit the riches
of Brtain and indeed Ireland and enslaved some of the people to work
the copper and tin mines or else they kept their knowledge secret
and kept the natives in ignorence of the use of metals. Seems as
though Charles Kimball has got it wrong over the formores being
Neanderthals unless the Neanderthals had cainanite phonician origins
. That is the ownly thing that would make any sense. John
From: "Darrell White"
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:33:55 +0000
Here is a good reference for you. was just rereading this book today.
The Annals of Clonmacnoise p.
14 "These fformores were a sept Descended from Cham the son of Noel
that there liuved by pyracy and spoyle of other nations and were in
those days troublesom in the whole world" >> >>1) This tells us they
were in the line of Ham
2) Pyracy and whole whole suggest ships that move from point to
point around the world.
which in turn suggests the Phoenicians.
Darrell although Partholan was the first colonist of Ireland there was one
>tradition that says when Partholan arrived with his neolithic coloney and
>brought the Oxen with them they found the Formores already there and that
>this "was the tradition " or memory of a "mesolithic" Hunter gatherer group
>who lived on "Fowling and Fishing" and had arrived 200 years before and
>lived on "Tory (Torinez ) Island" (Could this have been arround 2247 BC
>during the world survey?) and fought the battle of Magithe but this was in
>2025 BC. Yet when we get to Nemed there is another tradition that says they
>were Mariners from Africa and if these were the Phoenicians I would prezume
>they had the EB1 industry from Mesopotamia if they were indeed Nimrod's
>men. So Could both traditions be true? Maybe you can evaluate this for me.
>Charles Kimball insists they arrived before Partholan (Although he was the
Hi Damien Dan Janzen reckons that a city of the type built by Cain
needed Iron tools to dress the stones; and yet we have a village or
ciry as Darrell likes to call it; that was built by hunter-gatherers.
I here sugest Cichol Gricenchos and his men as a base for opperations
between the North of Scotland Ireland and Scandenavia;
Yet as far as I am aware no Iron tools have been found there although
Red Ochre Paint (Used in Burial cerimonies by the Neanderthals has
been found there. The smelting of Iron was something that was unknown
untill the re-introduction of the iron industry in Britain at least
untill arround the 500 plus years BC in the so-called Pre-Roman Iron
What I am basicaly saying Damien is that the Formorei had developped a
mixed ecconomy of farming fishing and huntergathering which would make
them part palaeolithic and part neolithic industries so the
Neanderthal I sugest despite what the evolutionary establishment would
have us believe was indeed capable of some kind of Neolithic
For my money the Formorians were in all probability the Last Neanderthals in Europe and settled Ireland according to the Dictionary of Celtic Mythology by Peter Beresford Ellis and practised the Mesolithic industry. I sugest that all in all they settled both Britain and Ireland arround year of the world annomundi 2520 and 1484 BC contemporary with Partholan mysources for this information are from the “Dictionary of Celtic Mythology page 100 paragragh Five whaere the formors and Partholan arrive in Ireland at the same time at the end of the Ice Age. Partholan’s people were a neolithic/chalcolithic industry people and remains of their flint tools &c have been found in Burial Mounds and the typical mesolithic flintimplements of the formors have been found on Tory Island and allong lakes and rivers. You will see this when you read the old ulster document from Roots Web.
August 16th, 2006 at 3:16 pm. Permalink.
I further agree that there is the possible likelihood that the Formors could have been of carthaginian or Phonician origin; but it could also well be that they were of Azilian origin again from Spain or Africa. John
August 16th, 2006 at 6:09 pm. Permalink.
The Mesolithic Industry People persisted right into the archaeological Bronze Age in Britain and on Ireland so therefore what’s good for Ireland is also good for Britain being geographically near each other. Nemed came to Ireland in year of the world annomundi 2859 or 1145 BC and in between this date and 701 or for our purposes here annomundi 3303 The Formores were displaced by Brutus when helanded in Britain in am 2900 or 1104 BC and as already mentioned could have been the last neanderthals in Europe. Nemed started the early Bronze culture on Ireland and Brutus Compendium of World History volume one chapter 18; started the early Bronze culture on Britain . In 701 BC the tuatha de dannan took Ireland and finally routed the Formores. And in annomundi 3500 or 504 BCwe come to the early Iron culture although stone tools were still being used by the peasantry &c with iron B in Britain and Ireland from 220 BC. These were the Latene Celts. The Picts did’nt arrive in Scotland untill anomundi 3904 or 100 BC with the Roman invasion of Britain in 55 and 54 BC by Julius Caesar and finaly conquered in AD 43. One thing is for sure and they never defeated the Picts. I have two Links pages that I would like to draw attention to the reader. One is from Mr Charles S Kimball’s website and so is the second one with regard to Neanderthal in Historic Times the first one being on page 11 of 20 Bottom Paragraph which is Professor Gunnar Heinsohn’s time line for Ancient Europe at The Genesis Chronicles: A Proposed History Of The Morning Of The World and the second one is a reference to the Neanderthal/Formorian link on page 36 of 36 at A History of Europe top paragragh. Thanks for your attention:- Author
The so-called scientific dating of Newgrange is quite francly a nonsense and a rather absurd one. Are then the scientists trying to say that they knowbetter than the people who once lived in Ireland or for that matter Britain? The Annals of the Four masters state that when Partholan arrived in Ireland annomundi 2520 and 1484 BC; just ten years later the formors arrived and fought the Battle of Mag Ithe with Partholan and this can be found in annal M2530 which is annomundi 2530 and 1474 BC. An alternative history relates that in this case when Partholan arrived in annomundi 1969 or 2035 BC the formors again arrived at 2025 BC and fought this battle some 500 plus years earlier. The Samotheans arrived in England 59 years before Partholan arrived in England making the date am 1910 and 2094 BC. The older men of Genesis 10 or the neanderthal arrived England am 1969 and 2035 BC at the same time as Partholan on Ireland. However on the reduced time line of annomundi 2520 and 1484 BC the neanderthals arrived in Engalnd the same time as Partholan on Ireland. The formorians were of the same age as the older men of Genesis 10 and were cainanites. Ifurther propose the neanderthals were cainanites or of the same ethnic stock as the formors. Having in mind in this connection that Samothes arrived in England 59 years before Partholan then by simple arithmetic and logic the samotheans must have arrived in England in 1543 BC. Thus 1484 + 59yrs= 1543 BC in line with the annals of the fourmasters. Conclusion:- The formores and Neanderthals arrived England in 1484 BC. I propose they were one and the same people plus the fact that the neanderthal were stocky and powerful individuals. Samothes arrived 59 years before Partholan on Ireland in England that is to say 1543 BC. I propose therefore that by simple arithmetic and logic and common sense that these dates are valied. Author
October 18th, 2006 at 5:37 pm. Permalink.John Hext-Fremlin replied:
The 2094 dating for Samothes is taken from “Compendium of World History chapter 19 volume one. JohnHXF Author
October 18th, 2006 at
I see one of the posts has criticised my article on the Formorians and Felizza was going to send an email to me but has not yet responded but has said that what everyone has said has got some merit to it. In the case of megaliths being built in Ireland in 3000 BC I would strongly refute and to ask some one to believe that monuments like stonehenge were built in the second or third milenium BC is just plain dishonest and a lot of folk such as myself would have serious problems with it. I would further like to suggest that there could well be a link between the Partholonian Neolithic industry and /or the megalith builders having a link to the Cromagnons as their embarcation point was in Spain. Bill Cooper “After the Flood”. I would most definitely place the mesolithic industry flint tools found on Tory Island in association with the formorians and that the evidence points to the fact that they were hunter gatherers. JohnHXF author
November 3rd, 2006 at 1:16 pm. Permalink.
I will certainly keep my email address open for this discussion forum as I would like to hear from people who may have different opinions to my own. It goes without saying that the Irish/British Histories are a very difficult subject but I am something of a revisionist on biblical chronology and have alsways gone along with Ussher’s chronology. I would also like to hear from anyone who holds a similar opinion regarding recent dating of Neanderthals on a European timeline of ca 1500 BC which when correrlated with the Bronze “Age” in 1104 and 1145 BC makes good sense with the iron industry following on in ca 504 BC and this would equate with the archaeological pre-Roman Iron age of the Milisians.
NEANDERTHAL AND THE FORMORIANS
Ireland. However he has criticised Bill Cooper for subtracting LXX annomundi
dates from 4004 BC. Example:= LXX flood Date =2242 annomundi and
Ussher=1656 a diffrence of 586 years. My point is that darrell pays "lip
service to Ussher" but could be in error. Take as an example the date given
for the arrival of Partholan in Ireland am 2520 and 1484 BC (1484 is
mentioned in Ussher's Annals) . I dont know without looking what theLXX
creation Date is (But would be handy for calculation purposes ownly). The
LXX has Partholan arrive Ireland 278 years after the flood. According to
Darrell White the figure is 313 years also using Ussher. Bill Cooper also
using Ussher ( Partholan am 2520 and 1484)= 864 years after the flood.
Diffrence 864 - 313 = 551 years diffrence. My other point is that dates
before 1484 or if you like 1500 BC go back into the Deep Mist of Time as far
as "The Isles and Europe are concerned and could be invalied due to errors
in carbon/14 dating and should'nt therefore be used". Darrell also tells me
that I should use ancient chronologies (using Ussher as I do and go with the
313 yrs after the flood) so if there is an error in Bill's dating it is
clearly in the LXX annomundi dates being subtracted from 4004. However there
are mitigating circumstnaces here. "Ussher's annals place the milesians in
494 BC. It also gives the date of annomundi 2520 and 1484 BC when one of the
pharos invaded Scythia if I am correct and Europe. Darrell informs me that
he can trace the Milesians arrival in Ireland back through the genealogies
mentioned in Genesis. On his timeline he places the first celts ie King
Samothes back to annomundi 1910 and 2094 BC (Compendium of World History
chapter 19 volume one). There is an interesting observasion here; He informs
me :- The older men of Genesis that you call "Neanderth" cmae to the "Isles
in annomundi 1969 and 2035 BC in England contemporary with the arrival of
Partholan on Ireland after 59 years. There was also a battle between the
formores he informs me in 2025 and Partholan. Thus if on Darrell's time line
2035 BC is the date being used; then for 1484 BC I have nailed the arrival
of Neanderthal or "Older men of Genesis in the Isles contenporary with
Partholand at the same time on Ireland. Darrell further informs me that the
formorian giants were as old and at the same time as the older men of
Genesis and if correct my time line would also reveal that there was a
battle 10 years later in 1474 BC between Partholan and the Formores invading
Ireland at this time ca 1474 BC. My chronology would also reveal by simple
deduction that the earliest celts of Samothes would arrive in England 59 yrs
before the arrival of Partholan on Ireland so 1484 BC + 59 years = 1543 BC
at earliest. Conclusion:- Larry you have seen my tesimoney. To date Samothes
to 2094 on my timeline would be todefy all credibility and I sugest would be
610 years in error. I will keep an open mind on this and perhaps you could
give me a response. You have seen the evidence that I presented. You must
decide which is the true version of events
The point I was trying to make was (Yes and you probably
guessed it) that Mike Gascoigne showed that the Firbolgues reintroduced EB1
into Britain and Ireland on his time line 1289 BC. If therefore EB1 was
concurrent with the exodus as Darrell says it wasin 1491 BC then it would
probably have taken a passage of time to reach Britain and Ireland via
Spain. Now do you see my point and where I'm coming from? Others say it was
reintroduced when the Phoenicians opend up the trade routs about 900 BC
according to some revisionist sources. So perhaps on my new table I could
put Firbolgue (Reintroduction of Bronze working 1289 BC) What do you reckon
about that idea? I'm glad that the work I'm doing for the mailing list has
worked out well for you and thanks for your encouragement by the way. I am
not much of an expert on Genealogies but industries are my chief interest on
this topic. I aggree it is importent to have genealogies especially where
the "Table of Nations is concerned; but by the same token it is necessary to
need to know when some of these industries were reintroduced to Britainand
Ireland and so far as I am aware; no young earthcreation historian has yet
given an evaluation for Britainand Ireland so this is why I took up the
initiative withthe help of Charles Kimball in drawing up my original
industry table for Britain and Ireland and did anevaluation using Bill's
dates. as they seem to fit quite well especially where Gunnar's research is
concerned although of course I realize now that it is a dates range and not
an exact chronology but is near enough for my purposes here in having done
that evaluation using the reduced chronology in this connection. John