carbon 14 dating system seriously flawed?
A speculative research paper
examining current evidence available on Neanderthal man with comparison to
references in early manuscripts of a Nephilim ancient race of half breed humans.
Argument is presented that scientific evidence and facts currently available
supports a proposal that Neanderthal man was in fact one and the same as the
ancient warrior race of half breed humans referred to in some of the earliest
Hebrew manuscripts as the Nephilim.
Neanderthal man has become an
enigma to science once being hailed as the proof of the evolution of apes to
modern man. He was considered to be the brutish ancestor link to man in the
evolution chain, the intermediate stage between man and ape. Now! Neanderthal is
recognised by scientists as a contemporary of modern man for a time living
alongside humans possessing many human attributes. But amazingly with a LARGER
brain than mans! Were they the Nephilim?
To address the question we first
need to examine the current facts and information available on Neanderthal man.
1. The archaeological history of Neanderthal finds :
In 1856 workers in the Neander
Valley near Dusseldorf Germany uncovered a skull and bones. The skull was unlike
anything seen before, having a flattened cranium with a heavy brow ridge above
large eye sockets. Nearby, workers also uncovered an assortment of thick and
heavily fossilized bones. In succeeding years many further specimens have been
found, not only in the German Neander Valley, but in France, Italy, Iraq and
Controversy surrounded the
interpretation of these fossils. Initially a German Anatomist Rudolf Virchow
examined the first discovery and concluded they were Homo sapien with rickets,
caused by a deficiency of vitamin D. He considered that the flattened head was
caused by repeated powerful blows (his examination was done pre Darwinism 1859
When more finds came to light with
what also appeared to be rickets, it was considered far too much of a
coincidence and for lack of any other explanation they became relegated to a
sub-human category. Later the French palaeontologist Marcellin Boule, concluded
Neanderthals walked stooped forward which fitted in with the then new current
thinking of Darwin's evolutionary theory of the origin of man (these new
assumptions were made post Darwinism 1859). For the next fifty years this
created the popular image of an ape man intermediary to man. Science thought it
had the conclusive evidence it badly needed showing the missing stage between
ape and man
Over one hundred years after first
being found Boule's skeleton was re-examined in 1957 and it was now determined
that Neanderthals walked upright and that the stooped posture suggested by
Boule's skeleton was created by arthritis. More evidence from various caves and
digs has shown that Neanderthals wielded tools and weapons, wore ornaments, had
cultural and religious rites, ceremoniously burying their dead.
2. The Neanderthal Brain Size:
The greatest enigma found with
Neanderthal is their brain size, which is more than 13% larger than our own
brain size. The average Neanderthal brain measured 1,500 millilitres in
volume compared to less than 1,400 millilitres for the current world wide
average of humans. This brain size allowed for large cerebral hemispheres.
Neanderthals were intelligent thinkers. Yet they left almost no permanent record
of their presumed intelligence or culture. Some say he could walk the streets
today in a suit collar and tie and be unrecognised, well maybe in New York, but
about as unrecognisable as a stocky body builder, would be a fairer reflection.
Yet today study books continue to be full of illustrations of Neanderthals as
subhuman ape men. Out of date TV documentaries go on wrongly depicting
Neanderthals as the evolutionary ape man link.
3. The Physical Features of Neanderthal:
Neanderthals were physically very
strong and unquestionably tough, a physically impressive race. Males averaged
about 1m 75 cm; females 1m 60 cm, Neanderthals were considerably stronger and
tougher. Their joints, were larger; their bones thicker. The fossils indicate
they were substantially more muscled including the children. Neanderthal fossils
lack the predominant chin of humans and a last set of molars. They had well
muscled chests, long bodies, with shorter legs. Some fossil specimens (not all),
have hip sockets more splayed than modern humans. The size of the skull eye
sockets would have carried very large eyeballs.
Through examining the attachment
points at which muscle binds to their bones it has been illustrated that their
calves and biceps were extremely well developed as well as their pectoral chest
and back muscles. A Neanderthal, because of this greater muscle mass, would
weigh some ten kilos more than a modern human of equivalent height. They were
regular Mr Universes.
4. Neanderthals possessed advanced skills:
Neanderthals used fire for heating,
cooking and manufacturing. They probably crafted leather and fur garments of
various types. Had a relatively advanced tool and weapon making culture
manufacturing, a large variety of finely edged, sophisticated flint tools and
weapons. This industry is characterised by the many tool types found, including
spear points, stone lances and wooden spears with fire hardened points.
Neanderthals made these different types of implements, for both
"military" and domestic use, it provides evidence of their ability to
plan, think and scheme.
Almost certainly, the Neanderthal
race possessed advanced language. Fossil remains indicate Neanderthal voice
boxes containing the vocal cords were capable of making the same sounds as
modern humans. As they lived alongside humans it is reasonable to conclude they
spoke the same language or if not learned to speak it becoming bi-lingual.
6. Command and appreciation of Music:
In a cave in Slovenia Yugoslavia,
archaeologists consider they have unearthed the world's oldest true musical
instrument, a flute which appears to have been made by Neanderthals. Broken at
both ends, the 12 cm long instrument is made out of the leg bone of a young bear
still retaining its four finger holes. Apart from being considered the oldest
musical instrument in the world, this flute's greatest significance lies in its
association with Neanderthal man's ability to produce music, and make musical
instruments. The Neanderthal race could have composed music, sung to it and
possibly danced to it no differently than humans today. The ability to create
music on a multiple note instrument reveals evidence of imagination and abstract
thought. It would therefore be reasonable to conclude that these same qualities
would have also been put to use in other skills such as reading and writing.
7. Neanderthal Culture:
There is evidence indicating that
Neanderthals possessed a sense of community spirit by performing ritual burials
and caring for the old and sick. Remains of several physically impaired
individuals have been uncovered. Some recovered skeletons display old, healed
injuries suggesting their wounds or injuries were treated and cared for. In a
cave in Iraq, archaeologists uncovered skeletons of a man, two women and an
infant buried together in soil containing pollen of flowers. The flowers, being
set there by survivors, strongly suggests that Neanderthals thought and cared
for their dead.
Analysis of the sediment pollen
concentrated in batches, implied that possible bunches of flowers had been
placed on the grave. Closer examination of the pollen enabled scientists to
identify many flowers that were present, all of which had some therapeutic
properties. Were they part of an aromatic preparation, a kind of pot-pourri for
the dead, or perfumed oils used in ointment preparations? If so an appreciation
of the cosmetic appearance of flowers and perfumed fragrances existed, much the
same as today with our embalming of the body with fragrances and the use of
flowers at funerals. These flowers also testify to a warm climate and the
abundant floral varieties availability at the time.
8. Neanderthal Burial tombs:
It is possible Neanderthals chose
certain caves to use as burial 'tombs' this would account for the fact that so
many of the remains of Neanderthals have been found buried in caves. This
practice would be similar to more recent human cultures who in certain parts of
the world used memorial tombs often carved out of the inside of a natural caves
using a stone rolled in front of the entrance to seal shut the tomb cave.
Evidence of Neanderthal skeletons
buried in excavated graves in the ground suggests concern over the concepts of
life and death. Value being placed on the dead person, funerals being a part of
the social and psychological practices for dealing with death.
9. Neanderthals exercised abstract thinking concepts:
Neanderthals show signs of being a
social race in which the old and the injured were taken care of instead of
simply left to die as with animals. Individuals of well advanced years, have
been found which support the idea that they exercised "humanity",
mental thought principles over physical actions. Religion is a characteristic of
the human species. In order to have religion, one must be capable of abstract
thought and reasoning. Without such abilities, the concepts of life and death or
a God could not be imagined. It appears the Neanderthal race possessed some of
Unlike humans however, there is
evidence presented by the scientists that the male/female role interplay as
practised by humans in family activity was not carried out by Neanderthals.
There is no evidence of couples or family oriented activities among Neanderthals
such as taking meals together. This stands out in contrast to their closeness in
so many other ways to humans.
10. Cruel Warriors:
There is evidence that Neanderthals
were cruel warriors and fighters suffering and inflicting battle wounds,
mutilations, torture and maiming, they may also have practised cannibalism. In
France archaeologists uncovered 2 fragments of leg bones and 3 arm bones. Some
scientists believe that these bones show signs of being fractured while still
fresh. Another Neanderthal site containing human bone fragments shows signs of
cuts and burns. The presence of burns on the bones is significant since no
animal, other than humans, make deliberate use of fire in food preparation.
These burnt and intentionally broken human bones have been interpreted as being
evidence of some form of cannibalism, Neanderthals eating humans. They could
equally be evidence of torture and or mutilation by dismemberment as has often
been the case within certain human cultures who engage in cruel battle blood
11. Neanderthals lived along side with Humans:
Researchers working in caves in
Israel have unearthed skeletons of both Neanderthals and modern humans. These
Neanderthal remains have been dated back some 60,000 years the accompanying
"modern" humans skeletons back 92,000 years.
If the relationship of the dates
are correct, modern type humans were around for a long time 'before' the
Neanderthals appeared. After they did arrive on the scene "modern
humans" appear to have coexisted with Neanderthals, sharing living areas
together with them for some time, until they the Neanderthals went extinct.
Although it appears that Neanderthals and modern humans were contemporary,
inhabiting the same geographic areas and living areas Neanderthals did not
interbreed with humans.
12. Scientists dating the extinction of the Neanderthal race:
There is evidence that both 'types'
exchanged ideas, at least in how to make tools. As a result, the idea that Homo
Neanderthalensis directly evolved into Homo sapiens now seems wildly improbable.
According to present scientific
thinking the fossil record of Neanderthals abruptly ends about 30,000 to 35,000
years ago. After this time only Homo Sapiens dominate the scene. Researchers say
"Why Neanderthals suddenly went extinct is a topic of much question we
may never know the true reason."
Radiocarbon analysis puts the later
Neanderthal sites as being c 32,500 years old. So some 32,000 years ago
Neanderthals disappeared completely; they simply vanished for no clear reason.
Today Neanderthal is classified as
totally human - Homo sapien (humankind). What happened to them? Some scientist
theorise that the Homo sapien race, 'us humans', killed off the Neanderthal
race. So did a physically and mentally inferior race humans exterminate a
physically and mentally superior race Neanderthals?? Logic dictates that if one
race extinguished the other, the Neanderthal race with their superior strength
and mental abilities should have exterminated the inferior human race!
This, of course, is the ultimate
question, one that continues to divide and baffle experts, one that I shall
endeavour to provide rational explanations for in this paper, incorporating all
the above criteria.
13. How science determines Neanderthal dating:
The scientists as we have seen date
the period of the Neanderthals to end c32,500 years ago. How do they arrive at
this date? What scientific processes do they use to come to this conclusion?
Surprising as it may seem it is all based on 'relative' methods "guess
work". Ridiculous! Have a look at the facts, when we do we are faced with
an unusual situation that exists no where else in the sciences.
The scientists have created a
theoretic "geological column chart" on which the theory of evolution
is hung. The most recent chart, now used in most museums and universities is
that drawn up by Van Eysinga in 1975. This chart covers some 600 million years
dividing time into periods, i.e.. Cretaceous 65 to 140 million year ago;
Jurassic 140 to 195 million years ago etc. etc. This chart cannot be found in
nature, it is theoretical, pieced together from various inter-related strata
from all over the world. The vast time periods that have been allocated in the
chart to facilitate the slow burying of fossils which formed the sedimentary
rock layers cannot be proved or illustrated in any deposits being formed today
it is all calculated and based on estimated guess work.
When a geologist has difficulty
dating a rock stratum he requests the evolutionists opinion on the date of the
fossils the rock contains, this then becomes its 'established' age date. When an
evolutionist has difficulty dating a fossil he requests the geologists opinion
on the age of the rock containing the fossil which then becomes its 'accepted'
age date. A case of two theories being cross referenced in order to establish a
so called fact??
14. Using the Carbon dating clock (C14):
Technically the carbon dating
process is very accurate, making precise calculations according to a set
formula. The clock itself works very well; like a stop watch with meticulously
manufactured cogs and wheels. The problems come with the set up data fed into
it, unless the calibrations are realistic and accurate the clock is no good. For
example if an extremely accurate clock is set to the wrong time to start with,
no matter how accurate it is, the time it shows will always be wrong. Or if a
clock has its mechanism set to a 25 hour day calibration with accuracy down to
one thousandth of a second, the time it shows will always be useless to its
owner and the error accumulates day by day.
So how has the important Carbon
dating clock been set for dating Neanderthal man? We shall examine the evidence
which shows that this C14 dating process as it is presently calibrated is only
good for accurately dating things back 2 - 3,000 years.
Scientists claim they have
accurately calculated the age of Neanderthal bones by using this Radio Carbon
C14 method. C14 is a type of carbon formed in the upper atmosphere when cosmic
radiation particles bombard it. It forms radioactive carbon dioxide and from the
atmosphere in minute quantities through photosynthesis passes into plants and
animals and so is absorbed by all living things along the food chain. Natural
carbon C12 is also present in all living things but in much greater quantity.
The ratio of C12 to its minute cousin C14 is constant in all living things
(today one C14 atom to one billion C12 atoms).
Scientists have accepted the
assumption that C14 has been forming in the atmosphere constantly and
continually for millions of years and that its build up which they calculate
would have taken 30,000 years has reached its constant saturation point (the
radiocarbon reservoir) and that as much C14 is now decaying as is being formed.
C14 absorbed into any living thing during its life time starts to decay once it
dies. After death half the amount of C14 decays away to nitrogen gas in about
5,700 years. Half of the remaining half decays away in a further 5,700 years and
so on until immeasurably small. Once a plant or animal dies it stops taking in
C14 and starts to decay at the above rate while C12 stays the same.
Calibrations given to the C14 clock:
5,700 years after
death 50% of C14 remains = 150 C14 counts per second.
years 25% of C14 remains = 75 C14 counts per second.
after 17,100 years
12.5% of C14 remains = 37.5 C14 counts per second.
after 22,800 years
6.25% of C14 remains = 18.7 C14 counts per second.
after 28,500 years
3.12% of C14 remains = 9.8 C14 counts per second.
after 34,200 years
1.56% of C14 remains = 4.9 C14 counts per second.
This dating test relies entirely on knowing exactly what the original ratio mix
of C14 to C12 is or was. The clock is only accurate if the ratio is the same
today as when the organism lived and that it remained constant throughout its
life and after its death, right up to the time of dating. If there had been less
C14 in the atmosphere during its lifetime than today it would have absorbed less
and the ratio would read much lower with a resulting lower count per second
giving it a much older false reading.
Evolutionists believe that there
has been no change in the ratio of C14 to C12 for millions of years. William
Libby and his co-workers while developing the radiocarbon dating method in the
1940s believed that the amount of C14 in the world could not possibly have
varied during the time that mankind had been on the Earth simply because the
Earth is of an immense age, some 4,600 million years old so they believed.
Because of this great age it was assumed that the 30,000 years transition period
required for the atmosphere to have built up its ‘equilibrium value’ of C14
had already occurred and that the terrestrial radiocarbon reservoir had reached
a steady state.
To test this assumption in
Libby’s theory he made measurements of both the rate of formation and the rate
of decay of radiocarbon. He found to his surprise a considerable discrepancy in
his measurements; that apparently, radiocarbon was being created in the
atmosphere somewhere around 25% faster than it was becoming extinct. Since this
result to him was inexplicable he put it down to experimental error.
During the 1960s chemists
repeated Libby’s experiments with refined techniques. They revealed that the
discrepancy of Libby’s was not experimental error but did exist. Richard
Longenfelter found 'There is strong indication, despite the large errors that
the present natural production rate exceeds the natural decay rate by as much as
Other researchers have since
confirmed this finding including Hans Suess, of the University of Southern
California in the Journal of Geophysical Research and V R Switzer writing in
Professor Melvin Cook Professor of
Metallurgy at Utah University reviewed the data of Suess and Lingenfelter and
reached the conclusion that the present rate of formation of carbon 14 is 18.4
atoms per gram per minute and the rate of decay 13.3 atoms per gram per minute,
a ratio indicating that formation exceeds decay by some 38 per cent.
Cook went one step further by
taking the latest measured figures on radiocarbon formation and decay. He
calculated them back to the point at which there would have been zero
radiocarbon. In so doing he is in effect using the radiocarbon technique to date
the Earths own atmosphere. His resulting calculations showed that the
composition of the present atmosphere is only around 10,000 years old!
Many researchers have shown that
the C14 in the atmosphere is still increasing at between 25 to 38% more
than is at present decaying. This indicates that the atmosphere, because it has
not yet reached saturation with C14, (saturation point is reached when the
amount decaying is the same as that being formed) is either still building
up and is therefore much younger than originally considered (i.e. Cooks 10,000
years), or at some earlier stage the atmosphere was inhibited from the present
rate of cosmic particle bombardment. This would mean that the build up of C14 to
reach saturation equilibrium would take longer than the estimated 30,000 years
which would only be applicable if the atmosphere was as it is today.
When we calculate back the equation
to zero point of C14 in the atmosphere using this increasing 25-38% present
'greater build up of decay ratio' in the atmosphere, we get a starting date for
the C14 build up process in the atmosphere by cosmic ray bombardment of only
c10,000 years ago. This would have the effect of drastically reducing the amount
of C14 that was present in the atmosphere and thereby reduce the amount absorbed
by living organisms during their life times. When reading these reduced amounts
it would create an artificially, much older dying date when using the present
wrongly calibrated C14 clock setting.
Scientists calculate Neanderthal
disappeared some 32,500 years ago according to present dating by C14, when
applying the assumption that C14 saturation has already been achieved. To arrive
at their date of 32,500 years ago the C14 reading in the Neanderthal bones would
have been c 2% of original ratio, achieved by a C14 clock count reading of c 6
counts per second.
If we now rework this date using
the 2% 6 counts per second calculation but from a short 10,000 year period of
C14 build up. Then a Neanderthal who had died say 4,400 years ago would have
absorbed C14 from the atmosphere that had only been building up for 5,600 years.
Then at death the Neanderthal would only have absorbed 18.67% of the scientists
anticipated 100% saturation amount of C14.
If absorption into the atmosphere
started 10,000 years ago then 4,400 years ago absorption would have been in
operation for 5,600 years, if saturation takes 30,000 years then 5,600 years
would be 18.67% of 30,000 years. This would give a false calculation for the
year of his death showing erroneously that he had been dead for 14,286 years at
the time he died.
It is ridiculous to think that the
atmosphere of the Earth is only 10,000 years old as the science evidence
suggests. Agreed, but the truth can often more incredible than fiction. There is
evidence that we shall be considering that although the atmosphere is older than
10,000 years the absorption of C14 at its present rate has possibly only been
going on for the last 4,400 years. The C14 penetration and absorption into our
atmosphere was inhibited prior to this time and that when the cosmic ray
protection ended the Earth's climate also changed radically.
The Nephilim Race:
True science reacts to evidence
with the ability to change its conclusions. But some 'sciences' have become
dogmatic and respond in exactly the opposite way. Lets consider the
Is it possible that the evidence
uncovered about Neanderthals should be applied to the Nephilim race? We need to
explain the following 16 characteristics associated with Neanderthals.
1. Had brains as large if not
larger than humans.
2. Well muscled and developed physiques.
3. Distinctive characteristics from humans.
4. Evidence that humans lived before the Neanderthals arrived.
5. Humans & Neanderthals coexisted for a period sharing living space.
6. Neanderthals were skilled in tool and weapon making.
7. They were a battle scarred warrior race.
8. Neanderthals were skilled in language, and literacy.
9. They were cultured in music and musical instrument making.
10. Neanderthals had a general culture of their own similar to humans.
11. They practised burial of the dead and religious rituals.
12. Possibly possessed skills in apothecary and, aromatherapy.
13. Neanderthals lived in warm temperate climate's.
14. They had possible hybrid characteristics.
15. Corrected dating places them coexisting with humans 4,400 years ago.
16. Neanderthals were exterminated suddenly while humans continued.
1. Ancient manuscript information on the Nephilim
The ancient Hebrew manuscripts
refer to a time some 4,500 years ago, before the Egyptian civilisation, when
highly intelligent life forces from outside our universe were aware that the
human race was multiplying on this planet. They turned their attention to earth
with the intention of controlling and colonising it. The human race at that time
had reached a possible population of some 35 million * (see foot note 1
at end of paper). For certain calculated reasons they took the
opportunity to move in on the Human estate with the objective of usurping it and
bringing it under their control and domination.
Possessing a high level of
scientific knowledge, coming from a race millions of years older than the fairly
new human race, they understood precisely how the DNA functioned in the human
format. Engineering a transformation of their own makeup to assimilate the human
form they took on physical bodies fashioned on their acute knowledge of the
human DNA structure and cellular make up. Possibly emphasising and enhancing in
the process physical power and size, making themselves extremely impressive
specimens * (see foot note 2 for manuscript references at
end of paper).
There is no information in the
manuscripts as to how many went through this metamorphic change but possibly
some thousands participated. They took pleasure in the power and control they
could exercise over the natural human population. Cohabiting with the
human women, selecting the best for themselves without restriction probably
meeting little objection from husbands or other human males on account of their
impressive physical dominance.
Once women had become impregnated,
inseminated with their engineered semen they became pregnant giving birth to
children who were a hybrid half caste race known as Nephilim. It is likely that
these hybrid individuals were sterile and did not breed.
2. Hybrid Sterility:
To illustrate by the existing
natural laws, a Hybrid, strictly defined, is an offspring that is a cross
between different species usually producing sterile hybrids; the male mule is
the sterile offspring of a female horse and a male donkey. It is used in many
parts of the world as a beast of burden because of its much greater body
strength than its parents. It seems to excel both its parents in muscular
endurance, surefootedness, and length of life. The hinny is the sterile hybrid
offspring of the female donkey and the male horse.
Hybrids often have what is called
hybrid vigour; they tend to be larger, faster growing, and healthier than their
parents. Thus, mules are bred for their strength, superior to that of either
parent. Ornamental plants are bred for their larger flowers; nearly all corn and
tomatoes grown today are hybrids that bear much larger fruit than their parental
Population ratios of the two races.:
How many of these highbred half
caste humans were born is hard to say but the records inform us that these
transformed humanoid visitors continued taking women and impregnating them for
at least 120 years (see foot note 2 vs 3 at
end of paper ). If there were
'say' 5,000 of them and they continued fathering children by means of various
human women at the rate of 'say' one a month over a period of 100 years they
could have accumulated a hybrid Nephilim race numbering some 6 million compared
to a population of humans increased to approximately 135 million (see
foot note 2 vs 2 at end of paper).
This possible 6 million strong
Nephilim race could form a veritable army by which their fathers could hold
influence and control over a human population of 135 million. This period of
human history became filled with violence and bloodshed. The entire human race
was affected by this environment of terror.
4. Are the Neanderthal one and the same as the Nephilim?
It is the writers conviction that
this hybrid half breed race referred to as the Nephilim were in fact one and the
same as the Neanderthal race. The characteristics of Nephilim fit the scientists
descriptions of the Neanderthal "a physically very strong, tough
impressive race with larger joints, thicker bones, well muscled chests, long
bodies, and shorter legs weighing approximately twenty pounds more than a modern
human of equivalent height, regular Mr Universes." It also explains why
their brain size and cerebral hemispheres were as large if not larger than
The evidence supports a correction
of the calibration of C14 dating clock after readjusting it allowing for the
delayed carbon 14 build up readings, doing this brings both Nephilim and
Neanderthals into the same time frame some 4,400 years ago.
5. Cause of extermination of Neanderthal/Nephilim race:
Scientists make guesses as to what
caused the extinction of the Neanderthal race but the ancient records tell us
what happened to cause the extinction of the Nephilim race, a massive deluvion
flood, exterminating the entire race. The manuscripts shed further light on how
this deluge occurred and how it would have dramatically changed the C14 build up
in the atmosphere, fitting the scientific calculations on the subject of
atmospheric saturation of C14 (see foot note 2 vs 7-17 at
end of paper).
6. An Atmospheric protection layer:
These ancient manuscripts refer
back to a time when a water vapour, screen layer was suspended above the earth's
atmosphere, possibly held in place by the counter balancing effects of
centrifugal, magnetic and gravitational forces (see foot note 3 at
end of paper). Saturn today,
has suspended around it atmospheric rings, although very different in
composition to that which would have circled the earth. The earth's vapour layer
would have had to have been much wider than Saturn's rings, roofing over the
earth's atmosphere, thicker over the equator, tapering down towards the poles,
forming a global atmospheric climate controlling mechanism.
This mechanism would have had the
effect of dissipating the thermal heat rays of the sun more evenly over the
surface of the planet. Protecting the equator regions from the intense suns
overheating as experienced today and dispersing this heat out toward the polar
regions, making for a more even temperate climate throughout the entire earth's
surface. This would explain evidence found of temperate vegetation and animals
living close to the polar regions and why warm climate animals living in these
arctic areas were suddenly destroyed and preserved in ice. Desert areas of the
earth today show evidence that during the earlier chapters of mans history there
was abundant water supplies and lush vegetation throughout the year, the very
same temperate climate that the Neanderthal lived in.
Could this also explain the dilemma
some archaeologists have when they find evidence that the Great Sphinx of Egypt
shows signs of exposure to rainfall weathering over a long period. For the last
4,000 years there has been very little if any rainfall in Egypt; has the earth's
climate changed radically by the removal of this water suspension canopy? Were
the three Giza pyramids and Sphinx built pre deluvion flood?
This protective outer layer
surrounding the earth's atmosphere dissipated the warmth around the earth
similar to the effect of a green house roof. Just as the panes of glass block
the suns harmful radiation rays entering the green house. You will never get a
suntan sitting inside a glass green house on a sunny day. So to the water vapour/ice
crystal screening layer above the
atmosphere would have protected the earth from harmful cosmic ray bombardment,
blocking out the C14 and eliminating absorption though photosynthesis. Today
without the canopy we are unprotected from the constant bombardment of these
rays and so are subject to the effects of premature ageing. Science is now
linking the bombardment of these radiation rays to cell and DNA breakdown as
part of the human ageing process.
This water vapour/ice crystal
screen would have protected life from harmful exposure to direct cosmic
radiation rays from the sun, preventing the infiltration of radio carbon C14. As
explained above this would account for the atmosphere still building up its
levels of C14 not yet having reached saturation point, the estimated take of
30,000 years build up would be way out, with a protection barrier screen the
rate of build up would have been far slower and spread over a much longer
period. With a starting point for the present rate of build up of C14 only
some 5,000 years ago with an atmosphere minas its protective canopy there would
yet be a further 25,000 years to go before saturation is reached.
This would have the effect of
causing all carbon dates greater than 4,500 years to be thrown out of the window
as the clock on which all these dates have been calculated has been set at a
wrong starting time wrongly assuming saturation in the atmosphere was reached
millions of years ago, whereas the evidence dictates that it still has not been
7. What caused the removal of this benign protection layer?
As already discussed, according to
the manuscripts, because of the situation of interbreeding between humans and
extra terrestrial races (spirit beings) the earth had acquired a fearsome,
hybrid race of Neanderthals (Nephilim). The situation of crossbreeding the
Spirit and Human races caused violence and bloodshed between humans and the
hybrid Nephilim off spring this filled the inhabited earth and needed to be
dealt with. This intolerable situation had to be removed, wiped out completely
or otherwise civilisation as we know it today would not have been able to
survive and continue. According to the Greek manuscripts (see foot note 3
Greek Codex Sanaticus at end of
paper) the suspended water
vapour layer provided the means to do this.
At a pre determined date the
suspended layer was broken up, the manuscripts according to chronological
calculations indicate this to have been almost 4,400 years ago. The fall of the
deluge waters came from the breaking-up of this suspended water canopy. Possibly
the balancing centrifugal, magnetic and gravitational forces holding it in
position were adjusted in some way.
Scientists acknowledge that the
earth's magnetic force fields have at certain times reversed themselves. Surveys
of palaemagnetism, the study of lava rocks which contain iron particles, show
when these rocks were cooling and solidifying from a liquid state the iron
particles would line up in line with the direction of the earth's magnetic field
leaving behind a record of the direction of the magnetic field at the time.
These surveys have revealed that the earth's magnetic field has reversed on more
than one occasion. Did a reversing of the magnetic field provide the trigger
mechanism setting off a controlled reaction that lead to pulling down of the
water vapour layer?
The billions upon billions of tons
of water vapour would have been drawn down mainly toward the poles by
gravitational and centrifugal forces, condensing vapour into water and water
into ice accompanied by high velocity winds, almost overnight causing major
dramatic changes to the earth's former temperate climate.
The build up of great pressures of
water and ice falling onto the polar regions would have forced it in glacier
form to spread rapidly out over the surfaces of the globe toward the equators,
gouging out valleys under the rapid movement of mountains of ice, glaciers
bulldozed along under massive back pressure everything in their paths would have
been destroyed. With the continual falling of this water and ice for 40 days (see
foot note 4) at both poles more and more ice built up creating a massive
rapid build up of pressure until its sheer weight cracked the earth's mantle
buckling it and breaking it up into the 'tectonic plate' continental land masses
we now have. These great continental land mass plates, crushed against one
another forcing up mountain ranges while the weight of the massive ice glaciers
along with billions of tons of additional water forced down great surface
depressions allowing the water to later settle into these new ocean basins that
we have today.
8. The evidence fits the theory:
How does the evidence fit with
this? Did the deluvion mechanism provide the criteria that resulted in the
formation of the worlds continental plates?
It certainly could have provided
the energy to create the tremendous forces needed to tear apart and crack up the
earth's crust. It could also have provided the on going energy to drive these
cracked continental plates apart in some places, over riding neighbouring plates
in others compressing and forcing plate edges against one another with such
force as to drive up and form the world's great mountain ranges that then come
The hypothesis that the crust of
the earth could have been cracked up into the continental plates by a thickening
of the earth's polar ice caps was put forward by Hapgood and Campbell in 1958,
in their publication "Earth's Shifting Crust".
Professor Melvin Cook took this
theory and modelled it. He started with a situation where the earth's mantel was
more or less fairly uniformly covered with crust from pole to pole. By creating
a build up of ice at the poles he finally cracked the crust, the fracture lines
determined by the pressures being exerted from the opposing polar forces. These
pressures on the earth's crust can be likened to the effect on the shell of a
hard boiled egg being squeezed in a vice from both ends. When the earth's crust
fractured it would have snapped rapidly and violently and like the pieces of the
egg shell, quickly separated in some places, but in others forced up against one
Professor Cook believes the ancient
Arctic ice cap a mass of some 100 million tons disappeared suddenly about 10,000
years ago. To explain this he says it would be necessary for the ice to have
dissipated catastrophically. He concludes the evidence proves the earth's crust
was rapidly forced up into the great mountain ranges at about the same time
masses of ice and snow were released forming the present oceans.
Much evidence supports an earth not
so long ago containing much less water on its surface and far more dry land:
1. Vast masses of terrestrial
animal remains have been found thousands of meters deep in the oceans, evidence
that the land was once above sea level.
2. Marine animal remains including
whale skeletons bear evidence of sudden extinction having been found hundreds of
meters above sea level, evidence of some phenomena causing the water to suddenly
and dramatically to raise above the original sea level.
3. Thousands of flat top islands
over 1,000 meters high have been charted at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean.
They are encrusted with coral revealing they at one time must have been at or
near the surface.
4. The island of Great Britain was
once linked to Europe by a connecting plateau now 20 meters below sea level, it
was once all dry land, remains of forests, Animal, Human and Neanderthal bones
have all been found on this plateau, evidence of a previously lower sea level.
5. The oceans and seas at present
cover some 70% of the earth's surface. It has been calculated that if 20% of the
earth's water was evaporated off some 50% more dry land would appear, with the
re-emergence above sea level of much of the land that at one time was originally
above the water. A suspended water vapour layer as described could have
comfortably taken 20% of the waters .
Evidence identifies Neanderthals as Nephilim?
The criteria associated with Neanderthals can equally be applied to Nephilim.
1a. Neanderthals had brains as large if not larger
1b. Nephilim were hybrid of two intelligent races; a large brain size would be
2a. Neanderthals were well muscled with highly developed physiques.
2b. Nephilim would have inherited these hybrid vigour characteristics.
3a. Neanderthals had distinctive characteristics (flattened cranium,
heavy ridge above large eye sockets)
3b. Nephilim were half caste
with human, characteristics acquired from both species.
4a. Neanderthals appeared after humans had been around for a long time.
4b. Nephilim started to appear some 1400 years after humans had been populating
5a. Neanderthals and Humans coexisted, sharing living space for a period.
5b. Nephilim inhabited the earth among humans for at least some 120 years.
6a. Neanderthals were skilled in tool and weapon making.
6b. Nephilim learnt physical skills and human culture from human mothers.
7a. Neanderthal were a battle scarred warrior race.
7b. Nephilim were aggressive filling the earth with violence & blood shed.
8a. Neanderthals were skilled in language, spoken and written.
8b. Nephilim communicated with spoken and written word, only one language
existed at this time.
9a. Neanderthals were cultured in music and musical instrument making.
9b. Nephilim as an intelligent half caste human hybrids would have no problem
mastering such skills.
10a. Neanderthals had general culture similar but not the same as humans.
10b. Nephilim acquired human culture from mothers and engineered characteristics
11a. Neanderthal practised burial of the dead and religious rituals.
11b. Nephilim had an intelligent awareness with
which to learn theoretical concepts, additional
knowledge may have been passed on to the Nephilim by their highly
12a. Neanderthal possibly possessed medical skills,
practising apothecary and aromatherapy.
12b. Nephilim were intelligent, develop advanced skills as warrior race and
13a. Neanderthals lived in warm temperate climate's.
13b. Nephilim lived in warm temperate climate before the deluge changed it.
14a. Neanderthal revealed possible hybrid 'vigour' characteristics.
14b. Nephilim were a hybrid half breed race with these 'vigour' characteristics.
15a. Neanderthal coexisting with humans 4,400 years ago according to corrected
15b. Nephilim according to bible chronological lived during this time period.
16a. Neanderthals were exterminated suddenly while humans continued.
16b. Nephilim were deliberately exterminated by a cataclysmic world deluge, the
bringing down of the protective water vapour layer the human race was preserved
through one family.
The contradicting and mysterious
circumstances surrounding the Neanderthals can be explained by the Hebrew
manuscript account which refers to an ancient hybrid race, the Nephilim. These
manuscripts are among some of the oldest in the world, now collected together as
part of the scriptures. The Neanderthal remains are very likely remains of
A conservative calculation for the
population of the earth 4,500 years ago is 35 million. The chronology of the
human race places the first human breeding couple c 6,000 years ago. Using the
population increase doubling every 60 years then over a period of 1,500 years
the population would have increased from 2 to 35 million. By the date of the
deluge 4,380 years ago it could have increased to 135 million (figures
Foot note 2:
References in the manuscript
records from the Masoretic text as per the Codex Leningrad B 19A manuscript as
presented in Kittels Biblia Hebraica.
Ref Gen 6 vs 1 "men started
to increase in numbers on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to
Ref vs 2 "then the sons (translated
"Angels" codex Alexandrinus Gr 5th cent C. E British museum)
of the (true) God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good
looking: and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they
Ref vs 3 "After that Yahweh
said: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also
flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years."
Ref vs 4 "The Nephilim (ancient
Hebrew, han. Hephilim, Fellers or those who cause others to fall down)
proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of
the (true) God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they
bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of
Ref vs 5 "Consequently
Yahweh saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every
inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time ( all the
Ref vs 6 "And Yahweh felt
regrets that he had made man in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart".
Ref vs 7 "Stating: "I
am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, from man
to domestic animal, moving animals and flying creatures of the heavens, because
I regret that I have made them."
Ref vs 11 "And the
earth came to be ruined in the sight of the (true) God and the earth became
filled with violence".
Ref vs 12 "So God
saw the earth and look! It was ruined, because all flesh had ruined its way on
Ref vs 13 "After
that God said to do Noah: "The end of all flesh has come before me, because
the earth is full of violence as a result of them; and here I am bringing them
to ruin together with the earth".
Ref vs 17 "As for
me, here I am bringing the deluge ( heb,. ham.mabbul " the heavenly
ocean" ) of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the
force of life is active (the active force [spirit] ) from under the heavens.
Everything that is in the earth will expire".
Codex Sanaticus Greek 3 - 4th Century British museum:
Ref 1 Pet vs 18 ".. Christ
died once for all time concerning sin ... he being put to death in the flesh,
but being made alive in the spirit". vs 19 "In this (state ) also he
went his way and preached to the spirits in prison," vs 20 "who had
once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's
Foot Note 3
in the manuscript records from the Masoretic text as per the Codex Leningrad B
19A manuscript as presented in Kittels Biblia Hebraica.
Ref Gen 1 vs 6 "God commanded
"Let an expanse (atmosphere) come to be between the waters, and let a
dividing occur between the two waters."
Ref vs 7 "Then God proceeded
to create the expanse (atmosphere) causing a dividing between the waters that
should be under the expanse (atmosphere) and the waters that should be above the
Ref vs 8 "And he called the
expanse "Sky" (the atmosphere in which the birds fly see vs 20).
Manuscript: Codex Sanaticus Greek 3 - 4th Century British museum.:
Ref 2 Pe 3 vs 5 "There used to
be a Sky (Heavens or atmosphere) and a earth of old which stood out of water and
in the middle of water suspended".
Ref 2 Pe 3 vs 6 "By means of
this (suspended water) the inhabited world of that time was destroyed by being
deluged with water".
Foot Note 4:
in the manuscript records from the Masoretic text as per the Codex Leningrad B
19A manuscript as presented in Kittels Biblia Hebraica.
Ref Gen 7 vs 11 "... on this
day all the springs of the vast water canopy was broken up and the windows of
the heavens were opened".
Ref Gen 7 vs 12 "and the
downpour upon the earth went on for forty days".
Further Related Material:
Richard Milton, 'The Facts of
Life shattering the Myth of Darwinism.
Melvin Cook, 'Prehistory and Earth Models'.
Hapgood, Charles & Campbell, James, Earth's Shifting Crust'.
Click to return to Main
Permission is granted to electronically copy
and redistribute these files provided the copy right notice, URL site are
retained as follows:
Copyright = John Denton. Bible Research &
Investigation Co (bric)
URL web page address = http://www.bric.uk.com
The Relevance of Velikovsky
at 4:40 amIf you read my website you will find that the Stoneage
starts after and immediately after the flood 2347 BC with the Neolithic
/Bronze/Iron/and Steel industries which later deteriorated into the
hunter gatherer cultures of the Palaeolithic.It should however be noted
that the terms Palaeolithic and Neolithic are confined by the author
here to industries only. The terms Mesolithic and chalcolithic are here
rejected by this author as an evolutionary nonsense
at 10:31 am | In reply to John
Hext-Fremlin.Just one thing that we have immediately picked up at
your site is Velikovskian catastrophism. We have studied Velikovsky’s
revised history in relation to his presumed catastrophism. Thanks to
Velikovsky’s revision of Egypt’s 18th dynasty, we can now create a
biblically-compatible history. But his revision needs to be seriously
modified. Damien F. Mackey treats this in great detail in many articles,
and especially a university thesis. For the latter, see http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/handle/2123/5973Velikovsky’s
supposed planetary catastrophism seems to be entirely irrelevant. There
is nothing whatsoever in the Exodus narratives to suggest that Venus was
And the initial agent of the destruction of Sennacherib’s massive army
was the Jewish heroine, Judith. See http://kinghezekiahofjudah2.blogspot.com/
This then turned into a rout. No Mars planetary blast (Velikovsky), no
mice (Herodotus). The mice were the Jews, referred to by the Assyrians
as “mice” in the Book of Judith.AMAIC.
Hi Damien I disaggree with you on Velekovskian catastrophism. I think
it is very relevant. I have also looked at your website and another
thing you say is that you do not believe in a worldwide flood.
But you believe that the earth will be destroyed by fire; so why not a
world wide flood and post flood rapid Ice age; which I believe was
coursed by an Ice Plannet fly By. It is so is it not that you believe
the key to the present is the “key to the Past” in uniformitarian
I’d also like to challenge you on your belief that Neanderthals were
not human. One writer has said (John Denton) that they were the
Neanderthal /Nephilim and there for decendents of Adam although be it
decultured. It is also myu belief that the Neanderthal/Formorei
(Caananites) built the village of Skara Brae contrary to evolutionary
uniformitarian thinking. They buried their dead with cerimony (And
this is absolutely a human emotion) and were thus post flood Ice Age.
Where did you get the idea that I said that Neanderthals were not human? I
believe that they were the biblical
giants – yes, human giants.
There is nothing in the Old Testament to suggest that planets were colliding
at the time of the Flood; Exodus; Sennacherib.
My Flood paper gives ample reasons why I do not believe that the book of
Genesis is describing a global Flood.
Hi Damien yes that’s most interesting about Human Giants ie
Neanderthal/Nephilim. One of your writers has a most interesting
article on “Evidence for Palaeolithic Man” after Babel but dates it to
about the 20’000 BC Range thus alowing for a post flood Ice Age which
I would date to about 2191 BC on Ussher’s chronology. However he is of
opinion that the flood was global as I am. The loss of a water vapour
canopy and the opening of the fountains of the great deep would
account for a global flood and an ice age immediately afterwood. Do
you place the neanderthal as children of Cain as does HLH? John
Yes, I agree with you that the Nephilim were the children of Cain, probably
coming late, at about the time of Tubal-cain.
But there were giants both sides of the Flood. Neanderthals pre- and post-
Flood. They are not just antediluvian.
On 21 October 2010 20:36, john hext-fremlin <email@example.com>
Hi Damien most interesting and thanks for this. Thus if the flood be
dated on Ussher’s chronology on a young earth concept ; Then
Neanderthal/Nephilim 120 before the flood would be 2348 BC+120
yrs=2468 BC for Neanderthal /Nephilim. Dr Jack Cuozzo is of oppinion
that the Swanscombe specimen could well be pre-flood, It seems you’re
wright about this Damien and seems to prove both John Denton and Dr
Cuozzo correct and as you say both pre-flood and post flood Ice Age.
One of your writers put forward an interesting concept that Adam was
Palaeolithic and Cain Neolithic/Chalcolithic when he built the first
city (something allong the lines of Skara Brae built by Cichol
Gricenchos (Whom I have identified as Neanderthal/Formorei from
creation history and the ancient chroniclers) about 2189/2188 BC
contemporary with the founding of Egypt by Menes=Mizraem:- John Post
script:- Damien could I with your very kind permission publish this
email on my website as I believe this would be of particular interest
to my readers. Please note all my work is entirely volantry and thus
not a commercial enterprize and is just for the sake of research and
interest. Many thanks for your time and emails Damien :- All the Best
That is very good news, John.
Yes, please feel free to post anything of ours. I am sure that you will
always provide the appropriate reference.
My best regards
The Worlds in collision image above and material from
is published with grateful thanks to Damien Mackey and
JXF and VC
>> Hi Vern I know you are busy trying to finish
your article on the
>> Skope's Fiasco; However there are certain
things that keep coming out
>> of the "Wood Work" rather like
"Skeletons in the Cuboard" at me which
>> need some answers.
>> Thus although my conclusions on
"Chronology of "Neolithic Man"" Part
>> Two on my website have a start date for the
>> and Steel" Industries being contemporary
for 2347 BC immediately
>> after the flood (No doubt that some might call
Chalcolithic) (And as
>> you rightly say the caves were formed during
the Genesis Flood &c)
>> There is the nagging question about Fallen
Angels having married
>> human women from Cain's line andproducing
"Half-Breed " Humans called Nephilim.
>> I would like tosugest that not all Neanderthal
remains or "Swanscombe
>> " for that matter have been found in
caves. Dr Jack Cuozzo reckons
>> that the Swanscombe people were very early even
>> because they come from waterlogged stratum.
>> I have here an interesting links page that you
might care to look at
>> when you have a moment. I am also going to quiz
Darrell White on this
>> enigma and it would be interesting to see what
he says. The links
>> page is http://genesisflood.blog.com/2010/03/02/revised-flood-charts/
>> I also think he is infuring that the Genesis
flood was not world wide
>> (Something which I find unacceptable). He also
starts Adam as being
>> Palaeolithic. Thing is did Adam posess stone
tools before the
>> invention of Bronze and Iron by Tubal Cain, and
can Cain be
>> identified with the palaeolithic through
degeneration more so than Adam.
>> There is one chronologist who places
Neanderthal in 1500 BC ie Gunnar
>> Heinsohn who has a stone tool count where he
>> arrives Europe...................1500 BC
arrives.................................1400 BC Bronze
Age...............................................900 BC Iron
>> Please let me know exactly your thoughts on
>> according to John Denton were there with humans
exactly 120 years
>> before the flood and correrlate with the radio
carbon 14 dates he has
>> given arround 4400 and 4500 years ago thus 2348
BC (Ussher's date for
>> the flood +120 years would date this event to
exactly 2468 BC. John
Damien MackeyJust one thing, John, that I have
immediately picked up at your site is Velik...
Oct 14 (8 days ago)
Yes, I agree with you that the Nephilim were the
children of Cain, probably coming late, at about the time of Tubal-cain.
But there were giants both sides of the Flood.
Neanderthals pre- and
post- Flood. They are not just antediluvian.
Hi Damien yes that's most interesting about Human Giants
ie Neanderthal/Nephilim. One of your writers has a most interesting article on
"Evidence for Palaeolithic Man" after Babel but dates it to about the
20'000 BC Range thus alowing for a post flood Ice Age which I would date to
about 2191 BC on Ussher's chronology. However he is of oppinion that the flood
was global as I am. The loss of a water vapour cannopy and the opening of the
fountains of the great deep would account for a global flood and an ice age
immediately afterwood. Do you place the neanderthal as children of Cain as does
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 12:31 AM, Damien Mackey
> Dear John
> Where did you get the idea that I said that
Neanderthals were not
> human? I believe that they were the biblical
giants – yes, human giants.
There is nothing in the Old Testament to suggest
that planets were
colliding at the time of the Flood; Exodus;
> My Flood paper gives ample reasons why I do not
believe that the book
> of Genesis is describing a global Flood.
> Damien Mackey.
> On 15 October 2010 04:13, john hext-fremlin
>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 12:03 AM, Damien Mackey
>> > Just one thing, John, that I have
immediately picked up at your
>> > site is Velikovskian catastrophism. I have
>> > revised history in relation to his
presumed catastrophism. Thanks
>> > to Velikovsky’s revision of Egypt’s
18th dynasty, we can now create
>> > a biblically-compatible history.
>> > But
>> > his revision needs to be seriously
>> > I treat this in great detail in many
articles, and especially a
>> > university thesis. For the latter, see
>> > http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/handle/2123/5973
>> > Velikovsky’s supposed planetary
catastrophism seems to be entirely
>> > irrelevant. There is nothing whatsoever in
the Exodus narratives to
>> > suggest that Venus was involved.
>> > And the initial agent of the destruction
of Sennacherib’s massive
>> > army was the Jewish heroine, Judith.
>> > See http://kinghezekiahofjudah2.blogspot.com/
>> > This then turned into a rout. No Mars
planetary blast (Velikovsky),
>> > no mice (Herodotus). The mice were the
Jews, referred to by the
>> > Assyrians as “mice”
>> > in the Book of Judith.
>> > (I have put up your comment and our reply
as a post at
>> > http://houseofgold.blog.com)
>> > My best regards
>> > Damien Mackey
>> > (AMAIC).
1) no known date for Tubal Cain,
Prof. Edward Hull's Usherian estimated date for Tubal
Cain's birth is about 3530 BC. 474
> Subject: Ussher's
Date For Tubal Cain
> Hi Darrell I have been dabbling with a little
> Could you please tell me the date of Tubal Cain on
> I have visited an "Old Earth Ceation
website" that places Adam
> supposedly 100,000 plus years BP (Before Present)
but still hold with
> the unity of the human race and insist on Adam and
Eve being the first
> Human pair and that Neanderthal Man was a decendent
at the time of
> Babel. The site is http://www.wonderlylib.ibri.org/RR044/44paleo.htm
1) no known date for Tubal Cain,
Prof. Edward Hull's Usherian estimated date for Tubal
Cain's birth is about 3530 BC. 474
2) You seem to have Damien MacKay's email address could
I get it from you. I have wanted to
communicate with him for some time now.
Hi Darrell yes it would be a pleasure. Damien very
kindly gave me a posting at his website specially on my ideas of Plannet flybys
and Velekovskien catastrophism.
Damien is an old earth creationist but upholds the unity
of the human race from Adam and Eve as the first human pair.
Evidently there are some room for aggreement on some
things and just as much again that we both respectfully aggree to dissagree. But
at least Damien places the Palaeolithic industries as post Babel and also
Many thanks for the date of Tubal Cain Darrell. Do you
reckon that before Tubal Cain descovered how to make or smelt Brass and Iron
that Adam Cain &c were using stone tools of neolithic type?
I have seen interesting arguments supporting this idea.
You may have seen my brother's article on Neanderthal /Nephilim (Children of
Cain) also published by my brother on my website as a speculative paper to add
to the interest of the reader.
However Damien says about the Nephilim that they came
late in the time of Tubal Cain and says they were both pre and post flood which
I have dated 120 before the flood 2348 BC+120=2468 BC also if John Denton's
identification of Neanderthal/Nephilim be correct.
Thus we have them in Northern Scotland in 2189 BC with
the village of Skara Brae and arriving sometime in Northern Scotland in 2225 BC;
Thus I have reason to believe that the gene of the cainites survived the flood
whos decendents must have been the children of Ham or Cainanites.
What is also interesting is that Dr Cuozzo is of
oppinion that the Swanscombe specimens predate the flood, Also of interest is
Bill Cooper's article on "Miocene Man", Bill reckons they were also
preflood owing to the state of the fossils being waterlogged. I'll go with your
date of 3530 BC Darrell and send you an email with Damien's email address . He
is a nice chap to comunicate with. Must go now and very good hunting John.
Dear Damien I have an estimated Ussherian date for
Tubal cain am 474
and 3530 BC and comes from Darrell White John
>> Dear John
>> That would not be far wrong, I suspect.
>> I myself tend to prefer Martin Anstey and his
>> Mauro, for biblical accuracy, though.
On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 5:43 PM, john hext-fremlin
> Most interesting Damien and many thanks for this.
> the Formorei/Neanderthal sp groups is'nt it and
the founding of Skara
> Brae in 2189/2188 BC. I'm glad you have contact
with Darrell; He has
> given me a lot of help with dates&c in my quest
> Neanderthals. Also your take on the Palaeolithic
> Babel. John
MIOCENE MAN (1)
> Dear John
If you read my article, "Just How 'Global'
Was the Great Flood?
(Genesis 6-9)", you will find that I have a
(Eridu - Irad; Uruk = Unuk/Enoch; etc.) prior to
the Ur Flood. And
recently I have included Akalamdug and his era, as
A global Flood would have been so immense, one
would think (certainly
Courville did), that it would have annihilated,
swept away, or at least completely buried, this sort of archaeological evidence.
>> Are you proposing that a global Flood would not
have done this?
> Dear Damien; on the face of the evidence it is
difficult to say. Most
> young earth creationists say that a global flood
would indeed have
> swept away most if not all of the evidence.
> However what I am proposing is that we examine Bill
> which does indeed show evidence for antideluvien
man and of course we
> should'nt either ignore the evidence of Dr Herman
Hoe who also
> insisted that the flood was global along with Mr
John Denton's paper
> "Neanderthal/Nephilim" along with Dr Jack
Cuozzo who also thinks his
> Swanscombe finds are Pre-Flood maybe along with
remains of Wooly
> Mammoth and dinosaurs.
> On the face of it; the book of Genesis says the
fountains of the great
> deep were opened (Underground water) and the
"Windows of Heaven"
> (Water vapour cannopy) having in mind that before
the flood the earth
> had a semitropicle climated which was protected by
this cannopy from
> the "Ozone layer &c"
> So what I propose is that there is indeed some
> for antedeluvien archaeology plus also a world wide
flood and indeed a
> rapid post flood Ice Age. For my money I don't see
the harm in
> speculating on a stone age sequence from Adam to
Tubal Cain even if
> the flood was Global. Problem is most (if not all
> creationists ) reject this concept; but I don't.
> I strongly recomend that the evidense from
Guaderloop and Swanscombe
> (Gravel pit of the Thames) be examined and
investigated. Thus in
> addition to your archaeological evidense we would
thus have all the
> evidense we need so we need to be more open minded
about all of this.
> You your self have said that you believe there were
Fire & Brimstone
> catastrophes ie meteors as even proposed by
Velekovskey. I also
> believe a planatary fly by coming too close to
earth could have broken
> up the water vapour canoppy and coursed the Flood.
> Melvin Cook in his Book "Pre-History and Earth
Models" proposes like
> Donals Wesley Pattern (The Biblical Flood and the
Ice Epoch) that the
> flood and the Ice age were simultaneous so this
gives some credibility
> to pre-flood Neanderthals having lived in a warm
climate. Thus having
> dated my stone/Bronze/Iron and steel industries (Predynastic
> BC as per Ussher) to Dynastic Egypt 2189/2188 BC; I
see no good reason
> why I should not insist that there was indeed a
stoneage sequence from
> Adam to Tubal Cain (Also extra biblical evidence
from Book of
> Jubilees) and press ahead with an extended
industries chart for the
> antedeluvien era showing these sequences.
> I would start with Adam 4004 BC Palaeolithic/Neolithic
to am 474 or
> 3530 BC for Ancient Bronze and Iron Industries with
the stone age
> overlapping untill 2468 to 2348 BC. What would you
reckon Damien.? I
> have been reading your revised flood charts and
they are very
> interesting accept I'd put EB1 in Egypt at 2188 BC
(Please go to my
> website www.johnhextfremlin.com
) and click the icon Neolithic Man
GF TO JXF
MIOCENE MAN PART 2
may or may not be a hoax in itself
but it's as well to make a note of it
and avoid the problem if it is for
I can't see any problem in your
concept of a culture sequence. Bronze was
certainly forged in Tubal-cain's time
but, by implication, not before, so
what came before by way of tools? BUT
remember that Adam was not a
hunter/gatherer but rather was a
farmer/gardener whose job was to tend the
Garden so he must have used some sorts
of tools. Of course wood as well as
stone could have been used in this
context and the metal additions were
Part Two. Menes is
As for the warning about this hoax
whatever it is ; I'll certainly
take note of it, As for a stone age
sequence from Adam to Tubal cain
(Estimated Ussherian date from Darrell
circa 474 annomundi or 3530 BC)
I find this indeed a very interesting
I have been dabbling with the antedeluvian
>> eara and "Flood Geology"
with Damien Mackay who claime he has got
an antedeluvien archaeology;
thus he backs my concept of a "stoneage
sequence of cultures or
industries from Adam to Tubal Cain. He is also of
the oppinion that a
worldwide flood as per Donovan
Courville would have swept away anything
>> that went before it. But we
>> >>>> need to examine Bill Cooper's
thinks rhat the Guadeerloop human
>> trmains are Preflood.
>> >>>> Thus I will send you the email
>> to me as he believes the Ur
>> >>>> Flood unearthed by Leonard
Wooly was the
>> same as the
>> >>>> flood of Noah. This is a most
>> study and is my priority at
>> >>>> the present moment Must go now
THE FOLLOWING PICTURES AND
EMAIL EXCHANGE BETWEEN JXF and DAMIEN MACKAY IS TAKEN FROM
http://houseofgold.blog.com/page/2/ , with
acknowledgements to Damien Mackay. Reproduced with permission.
Hi Damien I think that it is what
herman L Hoe (Compendium of World
History reckoned) There is not much
evidense for stoneage tools
Preflood as everything was blotted
out world wide. Although I would
say that the Swanscombe specimen
seems to be waterlogged fossil in
rock according to Dr Jack Cuozzo.
I think that the pre-Flood potentate
Lamech was the Ur king Akalamdug, Lamech
= Lam-Ak (Dug), a Sumerian name which
does not seem to have an obvious Hebrew
meaning. Others on the Net (usually
rather esoteric) have also suggested
Thus I would suggest that the Royal
Tombs at Ur, with all their splendid
burials, were people who had come to
realise that they would not be able to
escape the Flood as predicted by Noah,
which was fast encroaching upon them, so
they committed mass suicide – but in a
very regal way.
Hi Damien by taking as I do the
Flood of Noah to indeed be universal
(Extinct Mammoths &c) I’d also like
to dabble with the antideluvien
period in a little more detail; but
I would also need to have
consultations with Darrell White
Creation Historian as he has helped
me compile an industries table for
Britain Ireland Bible Lands&c.
if we are going to date the stone
age in the Middle East say in
antideluvian times ; We’d start at
year zero or for my purposes 4004
BC to annomundi 474 or 3530 BC to
the time of Tubnal Cain (Bronze and
Iron Industries) would we thus date
Neanderthal/Nephilim to say 3530
BC to 2468 BC ? Please go to my
industries chart combined and click
the icon Chronology of “Neolithic
Man ” Part Two to see how we can
update it abit more from there. John
As far as I see it, a global
Flood does not work with an
antediluvian archaeology. Dr.
Donovan Courville was right and
logical in his view that a Flood of
that sort of magnitude would have
obliterated everything that went
Wal Johnson, on the other hand,
tried to have ‘two bob each way’,
and so he retained Woolley’s Ur
flood as pertaining to the biblical
one, but he still insisted on Noah’s
being a global Flood.
But I think that you are very
much on the right track, apart from
that, in seeking a Stone Age
sequence from Adam to Tubal-Cain.
That is how I also see it. And I am
working along the lines now that we
have plenty of antedulvian
archaeological evidence. And that
Lamech, father of Jabal and Jubal
was King Akalamdug. And that the
royal Ur burials were in
anticipation of the Flood.
Then, after the Flood, the Stone
Age sequence would of necessity have
started all over again.
Neanderthals would presumably be the
(biblical) “giants”, both pre- and
Dear Damien I would expect you
know that some time ago Bill Cooper
>> (“After the Flood”) wrote a
pamphlet on “Miocene Man” . The
>> evidense showed that the
specimens were drowned in a deluge
>> Proffessor Melvin Cook
“Prehistory and Earth Moddels” has
>> link the Ice age and Flood
simultaneously . I would like to try
>> correrlate the Guaderloop evidnse
(Waterlogged Fossils &c ) with the
>> data from Ur of the Chaldees and
this idea would indeed support a
>> global flood and a rappid post
flood Ice Age. What do you reckon
>> Damien? John
If you read my article, “Just How
‘Global’ Was the Great Flood?
(Genesis 6-9)”, you will find that I
have a Cain-ite archaeology (Eridu –
Irad; Uruk = Unuk/Enoch; etc.) prior
to the Ur Flood. And recently I have
included Akalamdug and his era, as
A global Flood would have been so
immense, one would think (certainly
Courville did), that it would have
annihilated, swept away, or at least
completely buried, this sort of
Are you proposing that a global
Flood would not have done this?
Dear Damien; on the face of the
evidence it is difficult to say.
young earth creationists say that a
global flood would indeed have
swept away most if not all of the
However what I am proposing is
that we examine Bill Cooper’s
which does indeed show evidence for
antideluvien man and of course we
should’nt either ignore the evidence
of Dr Herman Hoe who also
insisted that the flood was global
along with Mr John Denton’s paper
“Neanderthal/Nephilim” along with Dr
Jack Cuozzo who also thinks his
Swanscombe finds are Pre-Flood maybe
along with remains of Wooly
Mammoth and dinosaurs.
On the face of it; the book of
Genesis says the fountains of the
deep were opened (Underground water)
and the “Windows of Heaven”
(Water vapour cannopy) having in
mind that before the flood the earth
had a semitropicle climated which
was protected by this cannopy from
the “Ozone layer &c”
So what I propose is that there
is indeed some archaeological
for antedeluvien archaeology plus
also a world wide flood and indeed a
rapid post flood Ice Age. For my
money I don’t see the harm in
speculating on a stone age sequence
from Adam to Tubal Cain even if
the flood was Global. Problem is
most (if not all young earth
creationists ) reject this concept;
but I don’t.
I strongly recomend that the
evidense from Guaderloop and
(Gravel pit of the Thames) be
examined and investigated. Thus in
addition to your archaeological
evidense we would thus have all the
evidense we need so we need to be
more open minded about all of this.
You your self have said that you
believe there were Fire & Brimstone
catastrophes ie meteors as even
proposed by Velekovskey. I also
believe a planatary fly by coming
too close to earth could have broken
up the water vapour canoppy and
coursed the Flood.
Melvin Cook in his Book
“Pre-History and Earth Models”
Donals Wesley Pattern (The Biblical
Flood and the Ice Epoch) that the
flood and the Ice age were
simultaneous so this gives some
to pre-flood Neanderthals having
lived in a warm climate. Thus having
dated my stone/Bronze/Iron and steel
industries (Predynastic from 2347
BC as per Ussher) to Dynastic Egypt
2189/2188 BC; I see no good reason
why I should not insist that there
was indeed a stoneage sequence from
Adam to Tubal Cain (Also extra
biblical evidence from Book of
Jubilees) and press ahead with an
extended industries chart for the
antedeluvien era showing these
I would start with Adam 4004 BC
Palaeolithic/Neolithic to am 474 or
3530 BC for Ancient Bronze and Iron
Industries with the stone age
overlapping untill 2468 to 2348 BC.
What would you reckon Damien.? I
have been reading your revised flood
charts and they are very
interesting accept I’d put EB1 in
Egypt at 2188 BC (Please go to my
www.johnhextfremlin.com ) and
click the icon Neolithic Man
Part Two. Menes is Misraem. John
That is interesting, John, and
good luck with it, combining an
world with a global Flood.
As I say, I appreciate at least that
you are envisaging a Stone Age
sequence also pre-Flood. I think
that that has to be the case.
What worries me, perhaps, is that
you are not offering antediluvian
archaeological evidence (e.g. cities
and related artifacts) for the
region of the four rivers, which is
the ‘then world’ according to
Dear Damien I have had alot of
opposition from Dan Janzen on my
proposal that there was a
cultural sequence of Stone age
from Adam to Tubal Cain (Please
go to my website and see the article
on Neanderthal/ Nephilim) Please
click on Neanderthal/Nephilim.
Ok Darrell and Dan have asked me
if I am in the young earth
creationist camp to which I
replied that indeed I am. However
have seen the email from my
friend Graham A Fisher (also a young
creationist) (Author of “Speak
through the Earthquake Wind and
who sees nothing wrong with my
concept; while it has to be said
it was mostly regressive people
from higher civilization that turned
to the Huntergatherer culture of
the “Palaeolithic” . Thus Adam was a
farmer/gardener whoe’s job it was
to tend the Garden.
What I propose is to print this
new chart seperatley from my table
Britain and Ireland and file it
under Neanderthal /Nephilim on my
website. Here is My proposed
Cain to Tubal Cain
3530 BC …….annomundi 474..Ancient
Bronze and Iron,,,,,,,,,,,,,Tubal
(Neanderthal Nephilim to 2468
120 yrs to Flood………………………..2468
With a continuation or restart of
Necessity of stone age cultures
after the Flood Using the Global
Flood Model John
That seems to me like a pretty
fair program, your chart.
I would always put c. (meaning
circa) before any date, though.
There is a lot of history to be
revised before one can say that Adam
came into being on such and such a
definite date before Christ (BC). To
give one example, the Greco-Persian
period in its relation to the Bible.
It does not conform at all
chronologically with Daniel’s
long-rang Messianic prophecy.
Adam, of course, lived a very
long time after he was banished from
the Garden of Eden. He had plenty of
opportunity to be a farmer
(Neolithic) over a wide ranging
Keep at it.
Hi Damien I will use the circa
(about such and such date you have
sugested;But Ussher’s chronology
works best for me as I have always
been taught that the universe and
the earth were created in six
literal 24 hour days six thousand
years ago in c4004BC.
Thus this makes the histories
alot easier forme to understand
of the millions of years which the
evolutionist would have us falsly
When Dan Janzen says there was no
stone age; I think he is talking
nonsense. Thus by implication
Genesis clearly says Tubal Cain was
first to descover Bronze and Iron
implying that the first tools had to
be of wood and stone.
I have thus placed Adam as
Neolithic from the begginning as he
a huntergatherer (Palaeolithic)
because Cain would have regressed
a huntergatherer and wanderer after
he had murdered his brother Abel.
Damien can you give me an
Ussherian date as to when Cain and
bourne and the date for mhis first
city and perhaps the Ussherian date
when Tubal Cain descovered Bronze
and Iron after ca 3530 BC. John
I am sorry but I do not accept
the biblical chronology of Ussher.
It has been amended by Martin
Anstey, followed by Philip Mauro,
who corrected Anstey mathematically
a fraction. Mauro’s excellent “The
Wonders of Bible Chronology” is
short and very easy to read, and is
an excellent reference. And it is
Bible-based. Moreover, it is now on
line at :
Mauro’s date for the Flood is
about 2390 BC, so the Cain-ite metal
workers must be say, very roughly,
c. 2400 BC-2500.
Hi Damien Dan Janzen’s email is
here down below;- John
On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 7:50 PM,
> Hi Vern down below is an email
from Dan Janzen. I don’t find his
> critical remarks very helpfull. He
says there was no such thing as
> “stoneage cultures either pre-or
post flood. That is complete
> and utter rubbish in my view.
> Now I am fully aware of the young
earth creationist position on what I
> absolutely insist on calling
“stone age” tools (Can Dan Janzen
> better word in the dictionary?)
being post flood and indeed also
> Babel. Dan Janzen is basicly
denying the existence of stone age
> cultures even if they were
contemporary with the Bronze and
> people groups
> as you can see for yourself down
below in the text. Let us leave
> a moment on my concept of there
being a cultural sequence between
> and Tubal Cain (Inventor of Brass
and Iron Something which Dan Janzen
> willfully ignores), As I have said
before ;- “Immediately Noah and
> sons dissembarked from the arc in
2347 BC they had their metal tools
> and probably made some tools from
flint or some sort of stone to aid
> them in mining for metals.
> Now on the Leana River (Not far
from where the arc landed (This is
> the time of the world survey teams
ca 2295 BC there was an advanced
> metal industry (of which Darrell
White informs me where not ownly
> as Velekovskey says “living in
palaeolithic and Neolithic time but
> simultaneously in Bronze/Iron/and
steel time also.
> My timeline for some aspects of
the Ice age is immediately after the
> flood ca 2347 BC untill the Ice
age Exodus meltdown in 1491 BC the
> same as Darrell’s concept. In
conclusion Vern I ask the question
> Can Dan Janzen prove me wrong>
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 3:22 AM,
Dan Janzen <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>> Why do you feel a need to
speculate on cultures preflood?
What purpose does it serve?
Obviously there was no such thing
as technology cultures or ages
before or after the flood. We have
been going over and over this, and
over and over this for a long time
and it puzzles me why you keep
insisting on talking about it.
>> If Cain built a city then he used
iron tools and if so then there
really was nothing to focus on in
terms of advancement in technology.
Tubal Cain was obviously someone
renowned for his skills and we
shouldn’t read too much into this as
far as technology advance. The idea
of technology advance is neomodern
one of the last 400 years, since
technology had almost always been in
regression (prior to 400 years ago)
since the “Golden Ages” of
>> — On Wed, 12/8/10, john
>>> From: john hext-fremlin <email@example.com>
>>> Subject: Re: The Amaic Website
>>> Date: Wednesday, December 8,
2010, 4:07 PM
>>> On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 9:06 PM,
>>> > Correction link should be for
the second one
>>> > On Wed, Dec 8, 2010 at 8:41
PM, john hext-fremlin
>>> > <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>>> >> Dear Mike ; Darrell and Dan;
>>> >> I have found Damien Mackey’s
website quite a
>>> challenging one ; However
>>> >> I for my part do not depart
from the concepts of
>>> young earth
>>> >> creationist although it has
to be said that Damien
>>> reckons he has an
>>> >> antedeluvian archaeology and
thinks the Royal
>>> toombs at Ur of the
>>> >> Chaldees were in anticipation
of the oncoming
>>> flood of Noah and also
>>> >> holds to some of Sir Leonard
Wooley’s finds on
>>> what Damien calls the
>>> >> “Mud Flats.
>>> >> I have insisted that the
flood is global where as
>>> he seems to think
>>> >> that a flood (global) at the
time of Noah would
>>> have destroyed
>>> >> everything in it’s path which
indeed it did.I have
>>> been featured on
>>> >> the Amaic website when I
clicked the icon “North
>>> West Creation ” lo
>>> >> and behold I saw some
pictures (three of them ) of
>>> Neanderthal one of
>>> >> which looks a little like Sir
Alan Sugar (Almost
>>> his Double.
>>> >> I have two interesting links
that you might all
>>> like to examine. The
>>> >> links are thus:- http:genesisflood.blog.com
I for my my
>>> part have tried
>>> >> to persuade Damien that the
flood was global.
>>> Question is does he if
>>> >> he accepts a “Tranquil world
wide flood” then find
>>> human artifacts.
>>> >> Perhaps I have taken a “dive
in the deep end”. I
>>> don’t know. But as
>>> >> you say Darrell and my friend
Graham A Fisher
>>> says:- It is not
>>> >> unreasonable to speculate on
a sequence of
>>> cultures (without naming
>>> >> them) from Adam to Tubal Cain
(Ancient Bronze and
>>> >> Can anyone tell me when Tubal
Cain became an
>>> artificer in Bronze and
>>> >> Iron. Damien reckons between
2500 and 2400 BC.
>>> Thus if the giant
>>> >> Nephilim were alreadt there
120 yrs before the
>>> flood (Thus 2348 BC +
>>> >> 120 yrs before the flood=2468
BC) because we are
>>> told in Genesis 6
>>> >> verse 1-4 that Man’s days on
earth shall be 120
>>> years by implecation.
>>> >> I cannot speculate too much
on the Nephelim
>>> although I believe there
>>> >> is a link from Post Flood
Neanderthal people to
>>> the giants ie Nephilim
>>> >> who were destroyed in the
flood of Noah through
>>> maybe the genes of
>>> >> Ham. As I say and as the text
in Genesis makes
>>> absolutely clear that
>>> >> the Nephilim were there
before the flood and also
>>> after that (ie after
>>> >> the flood as well. However
Darrell I don’t know
>>> what you think about
>>> >> the idea.
>>> >> But if I were to draw up a
>>> chart” from Adam to
>>> >> Tubal Cain I believe that the
creation model for
>>> some of these
>>> >> cultures would ownly allow me
to go from 4004 BC
>>> as far as Tubal Cain
>>> >> ca annomundi 474 or 3530 BC
having in mind the
>>> >> civilization was very
advanced. In conclusion
>>> therefore it is most
>>> >> importent to remember that
Adam was not a
>>> hunter-gatherer so by
>>> >> implecation before the
forging of Bronze and Iron
>>> by implecation what
>>> >> tools or materials would have
>>> >> Of course there would have
been wood or stone. (We
>>> are also told that
>>> >> the gold of the four rivers
was good in that land
>>> ) so perhaps Adam
>>> >> came into posession of Gold
as well before the
>>> forging of metals ie
>>> >> before the timeof Tubal Cain
ca 3530 BC. I am also
>>> sugesting that the
>>> >> aggricultural groups may have
>>> Hunter-gatherers after they
>>> >> regressed.
>>> >> Maybe for a while untill Cain
built his city; He
>>> was condemmed to be a
>>> >> wanderer and a vagabond in
the earth (This also
>>> fits with HLH’s view)
>>> >> Therefore Cain I sugest
became a huntergatherer
>>> untill the time he
>>> >> built Enoch City. JOhn
Yes, as you rightly point out,
John, Dan’s insistence on:
“Obviously there was no such thing
as technology cultures or ages
before … the flood”, is quite
un-biblical, and quite
Also, I love your Neanderthal
comparison with Sir Alan.
END OF EXTRACT FROM
Pictures of "Neanderthal Lookalikes" from Damien
Reproduced courtesy of AMAIC
John Hext-Fremlin wrote
NEPHILIM "FALLEN ANGELS?"
Does not the Bermuda or "Devil's Triangle" say there was
a sea of
dissapearing ships and particularly air planes . And what of the
Philadelphia Experiment. Some people have been teleported back in time
accoeding to what I have herd about this experiment. I'l have a look
at those two links you sent me tonight. John
On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:30 PM, john hext-fremlin
> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:18 AM, Dan Janzenwrote:
>> Two excellent articles. The AIG one is most thorough.
>> Regarding UFOs Chuck Missler and other authors who follow his view are ust
plain wrong. I have done hundreds of hours of research on the subject and his
conclusions are based on a poor understanding of modern day technology and
demonology. He can't seem to tell the difference. Vehicles are modern technology
in almost all cases. Abductions are a deceptive demonic experience in almost all
cases and they do not involve movement to another location but rather an in-situ
demonic experience. Gates' (AIG) research on the subject found that when people
called on the name of Jesus the experience stopped. It is not all that hard to
tell the difference between the demonic and the "black" technology in most
cases. You can draw a line right down through the middle in nearly every case.
>> --- On Sun, 12/12/10, john hext-fremlin
>>> Subject: Re: The Nephilim:- "Were they Fallen Angels"
>>> Date: Sunday, December 12, 2010, 11:53 AM
>>> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 4:49 PM, john
>>> > Darrell and Vern I think that it is indeed possible
>>> that the book of
>>> > Genesis might indeed be refuring to Fallen angels
>>> cross-breeding with
>>> > human women (Please see the article published by my
>>> brother at
>>> > www.johnhextfremlin.com by John Denton) thus
>>> > Dan :- I don't know what you think although you did
>>> express the view
>>> > that they were some kind of "Patriarcle Men of Renow"
>>> and not demon
>>> > posessed" in other words they did something for the
>>> people to get them
>>> > well known.
>>> > However what I would say to you is this:- That the
>>> Genesis Text
>>> > insists (and we should take that very seriously
>>> indeed) that they were
>>> > there "Before and also After that"
>>> > I know that you say ufos are simply Government
>>> coverups for testing
>>> > "Top secret weopens" &c so there might be some
>>> conspiracy theories as
>>> > well. But why would they (if they occupents were from
>>> the government )
>>> > would they want to abduct people? That is the ten
>>> million "Dolar"
>>> > question if you like.
>>> > If abduction then I can ownly sugest that in
>>> conclusion that some (But
>>> > not all) are Satanic Vehicles. John
>>> > On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 4:32 PM, john hext-fremlin
>>> >> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 4:30 PM, john
>>> >>> Hi Dan Darrell and Vern:-
>>> >>> I have an interesting links page here and it
>>> also mentions authors of
>>> >>> a very "Far out" "Fringe" "Persuasion" such as
>>> Zachiriah Sitchin"
>>> >>> author of "There were Giants on the Earth in
>>> those Days".
>>> >>> Dan:- You probably remeber our descussion on
>>> ufo's as to whether or
>>> >>> not the occupents were actually demo posessed
>>> or simply Satan's Fallen
>>> >>> Angels. Now the links page which I have here
>>> sugest the Nephilim were
>>> >>> infact Fallen Angels or perhaps I should say
>>> that the Nephilim were
>>> >>> the result of cross-breeding of Humans and
>>> Fallen angels and/or Demon
>>> >>> posessed humans from the line of Seth. So
>>> which is true?
>>> >>> Here is a link that I think you will find very
>>> >>> http://www.askaword.com/?q=Nephilim&d=1s&1ibs- John
Hi Damien thanks for that interesting email you sent me
time then of Tubal Cain forging Bronze and Iron as you say between
2400 and 2500 BC . Would Genesis 6 verses one to four represent the
120 yrs before the flood?
Would therefore 2468 BC (If using Ussher which is easier for me ) be a
reasonable estimate? John
Damien MackeyYes, John. The Nephilim were on the earth before the Flood and also
john hext-fremlin- Hide quoted text - Reply ForwardDamien is not available to
chat New window ...
Reply |john hext-fremlin to Damien
I will ammend that to 1656 annomundi and 2348 BC Damien Many thanks John
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Damien Mackey
> Yes, John.
> The Nephilim were on the earth before the Flood and also "afterwards", as
> the text says.
> Your Flood date should be 1656 years from your date for the beginning of
> Adam. That is the proper time span.
The Birth Date of Cain
and Abel and the Ancient Bronze and Iron Industry
Hi Darrell assuming that there was a short sequence of
>>>> cultures from Adam to the time of Tubal Cain ca annomundi 474 and 3530
>>>> BC I would briefly like to summerise:-
>>>> 1/. At what date were Cain and Abel bourne approx,
>>>> 2/. When did Cain become a "vagabond and wanderer (Maybe
>>>> hunter-gatherer implies a degeneration from Neolithic to
>>>> 2/. At what Date did Cain build "Enoch City ? (Jericho? as Damien
>>>> seems to reckon although I might have this wrong)
>>>> 3/.Did Tubal Cain assuming at age 25 become an instructor and or
>>>> inventor of Brass and Iron given the approximate date that you gave me
>>>> for Tubal Cain's Birth 3530 BC?
>>>> 4/ Assuming then as with Cichol Gricenchos who colonised Scotland in
>>>> ca 2225 BC at age 25 and presumabably as you say a mature leader I am
>>>> thus conjecturing that as with Tubal Cain the same deduction might
>>>> well apply say 3530 BC -25yrs=3505 BC approximately for the invention
>>>> of Bronze and Iron by Tubal Cain?
>>>> 5/ If so then a period of not more than 500 plus years is what this
>>>> author and writer would allow for a brief "stone age" period from Adam
>>>> to Tubal Cain on a creation and biblical model and perhaps I hope in
>>>> line with the ancient chroniclers> John
>>> I really do not like speculation on pre-flood events without any
>>> historical records -
>>> I am very tired of the constant speculation in chronology after the
>>> flood and I have
>>> developed a very low tolerance for it.
>>> Assuming a stone age before Tubal Cain, which is not entirely
>>> unreasonable, we would
>>> have no artifacts to support it at all - as all were buried in
>>> thousand of feet of sediment.
>>> However, it seems some try to suggest that stone age artifacts we find
>>> are of that time.
>>> That is quite contradictory to YEC models.
>>> If we consider the pre-flood environment, what need would they have to
>>> tools, all they need
>>> they could pick and eat - no meat eating before the flood was the
>>> norm. Did Cain have
>>> to do more than just reap wild harvests? We do not know and have no
>>> evidence. Did Adam
>>> learn about metals from God? I think so - but Tubal Cain may have
>>> been the first to really
>>> expand the knowledge in this area. Was Cains city like the cities we
>>> have today - we assume
>>> so, but we have no knowledge - even Cain's group may not have had any
>>> need for tools but
>>> accepted them when discovered.
>>> So why speculate about what we have absolutely no way of verifying
>>> unless some of the pre
>>> flood records turn up to help us. The whole evolutionary stone age
>>> concept is non-sense in
>>> the first place as we have stated over and over.
>>> 1) As far as I know, we have no information on when Cain and Abel were
>>> born. The
>>> Book of Jubilee is the only source I know of which suggests a date. -
>>> Being a chronological
>>> model - I do not trust their chronological model and we only have one
>>> source - witness, thus
>>> it would only be speculative - but one source is better than none.
>>> All we know is that it
>>> must have been about 20 years (or more) before Seth was born in 130 AM.
>>> 2) Cain wandered shortly after he killed Abel - see 1) above.
>>> He did have a wife - a sister - thus we can assume he was over 20 years old.
>>> 2b) Jericho was founded after the flood - the World wide flood
>>> covered the whole
>>> area in sediment. Think it through. We have firm chronology for Cain
>>> and descendents.
>>> see book of Jubilee - that would be the only source that I know of
>>> which might mention it.
>>> 3) Professor Edward Hull estimated Tubal Cain's birth at that time.
>>> Since they lived a long
>>> time back then, TC may not have become interested in metal until
>>> latter in life, but it is
>>> also reasonable to speculate that he became interested as a child and
>>> followed through.
>>> 4) Since it is so speculative in itself, rounding to the nearest 100
>>> year point is reasonable.
>>> I would suggest rounding to 3500 BC.
>>> 5) To a YEC, speculating on a stone age for 500 years is
>>> contradictory. Maybe. It is not
>>> impossible, but we have very little reason to suspect so either. No
>>> artifacts, no documents.
>>> But it would fit well with Bible scholars who don't believe in a WW
>>> flood -- in facts fits quite
>>> nicely for them.
>> Hi Darrell that's most interesting information . Thus
I will go by
>> your recomended timeline in putting this chart together although as
>> you rightly say it is of a speculative nature; and not entirely
>> unreasonable concept
> Hi Darrell is the date for the Nephilim 120 years before the flood ie
> 2468 BC. In doing the supplement for the industries chart I would like
> to ask you to confirm whether I have made the correct date of 2468. It
> does'nt matter about the rest of the supplement I just need your
> confirmation on my date. Thanks John
I know of no way to estimate a date for that.
Your assumption of 120 years before the Flood
would probably be the latest date - so better than
nothing, but I have never seen any reference that
would make it anything but a guess.
Hi Darrell many thanks ; as it's better than nothing as you say I'll
use it on the pre-flood supplement. Thanks John
Post Script:- I'll be sending you the pdf attatchment that I prommised
you to-day on Roy Shultz's "Exploring Ancient History ; the first 2500
years". He has some interesting concepts of Abraham in Austria. John
February 12, 2011
Editors Comment: Once
again, evolution is being shown as an amateurish attempt to discredit God.
The following article from the Trumpet.com
shows that DNA from Neanderthal man is so similar to humans, that the
difference is insignificant. Seems Neanderthal man is nothing more than
pre-flood humans with a lot more muscle than his modern, soft
After years of anticipation, the genetic code of Neanderthal
“cavemen” is being decoded. And it is unraveling the theory of
evolution. Apparently Neanderthals are a little more closely related to
humans than expected. How close? Let’s just say that the man Aunt Thelma
married may really be a “Neanderthal” after all.
According to a May 6 Science article, the Neanderthal
genome sequencing is nearing completion. It is not complete yet, but what
scientists have found so far is astounding: Humans and “Neanderthals”
are practically identical at the dna code level.
The researchers used dna captured from the nucleus of cells found in
three bone fragments from three different female Neanderthals found in
Croatia. The scientists then compared the Neanderthal genome to the human
at 14,000 protein coding gene segments that differ between humans and
chimpanzees. In doing so, they looked at over 3 billion combinations of
four key protein molecules.
What did the scientists find? Simply put: Neanderthals are human. There
was virtually no difference between the two codes. The few differences
they did find were so slight that researchers say that they are
functionally irrelevant—and that if more Neanderthal genomes could be
compared there might be no differences at all!
But that is not all the scientists found. The data suggests
Neanderthals are as closely related to humans as Chinese are to Germans,
or French to Javanese. Furthermore, the genetic material analyzed
indicated that Neanderthals
and humans interbred and produced offspring that interbred—and
Uncle Jed’s jutting eyebrow? Chalk that one down to dna passed down
from generation to generation.
“Whatever our differences, they’re not in the composition of your
building blocks,” reports
Wired Science. The “Neanderthal genome shows most humans are
Did you get that? All those supposed pre-man, caveman bones are
actually just plain old human skeletons.
It is a startling admission for evolutionists because it throws a
monkey wrench into conventional evolutionary theory.
According to Darwinian thought, millions of years ago ancestral monkeys
began unwittingly evolving along a path that would eventually produce
humans. Along the way, about 400,000 years ago, the first Neanderthal was
born. Ancestral humans, however, supposedly continued evolving separately
along a divergent evolutionary branch, becoming modern around 40,000 years
According to this theory, Neanderthals and humans lived and coexisted
together for tens of thousands of years before the less robust, but
smarter humans killed off, or out-competed, the Neanderthals. But because
Neanderthal and human ancestors diverged into separate species so long
previous, interbreeding would have been impossible, even though,
skeletally speaking, scientists admit that Neanderthal frames fall within
examples of modern living humans.
This idea that Neanderthals represent an intermediate branch between
humans and apes is critical evidence commonly offered by evolutionists to
prove that evolution is occurring. Thus, many evolutionists will be loath
to accept the recent genetic findings.
Here is the problem: Evolutionists can find lots of monkey bones. And
they can find lots of human bones. They just can’t find the half-monkey,
half-human bones. This presents a huge problem for them because if man has
been evolving from monkeys for millions of years, you would expect to find
millions of these intermediary half-monkey, half-man bones.
Neanderthal bones, even though relatively few of them have been found,
were held up as the most hopeful proto-human candidate.
The recent DNA evidence grinds this theory to bone bits.
But it was a theory that was becoming thoroughly discredited anyway.
Over the years, as more Neanderthal bones have been dug up, a far
different picture from the brutish, ignorant, unhygienic ape-caveman has
emerged. Most scientists now admit that Neanderthals walked upright with a
posture and gait like humans today. They cared for their families, buried
their dead, used many types of tools, and cooked their food. Recent
discoveries also show that at least some women carried compacts and used
different types of makeup including foundation layers and blush.
The main difference is that Neanderthals are slightly shorter on
average, but have larger hands, thicker arm and leg bones and were
significantly more muscled. They also had larger skulls, and brains which
were approximately 11 percent larger than the typical human, but well
within the range found today.
The scientists that now admit that Neanderthals were fully human have
reclassified them as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis—which
is just the scientific way of saying the bones are a variety of true
So much for the Neanderthal as an ancient monkey-man theory.
But perhaps the most amazing but unreported facet of the Neanderthal
story is that if scientists had just looked at the Bible, they would have
known that Neanderthals were fully human in the first place.
The Bible describes a race of pre-Flood humans that grew to dominate
the cultural landscape before being wiped out.
Genesis 6:4 talks about “giants” in the land before the flood. The
English word giants is translated from two original Hebrew
words: Rephaim and Nephilim. The Rephaim are
mentioned only after the Flood; they were tall men, like Anakim
(Deuteronomy 2:11, 20).
As Roy Shultz brings out in Exploring Ancient History,
the word giant in Genesis 6:4 comes from the word Nephilim,
which means “a feller,” or one who fells a tree because of his unusual
strength. The term implies a “tough,” or a bully, an
individual of great physical might. In other words, the Nephilim were giants
in strength but not in tallness of stature.
The description of the Nephilim of pre-Flood times matches perfectly
with the large-boned, exceptionally muscled Neanderthals.
The Bible even indicates how these Nephilim or Neanderthals were killed
Prior to the Flood, the Earth became filled with evil and violence. It
was a time of intermarrying between the different races that God had
created. It was also a time of rapid technological advancement.
The Bible talks about a great leader named Tubalcain. He was the first
to work with metal and develop instruments of war (Genesis 4:22). And in
those days violence filled the Earth (Genesis 6:11, 13). The Neanderthals
were no match for the swords and spears and arrows of Tubalcain’s
According to Shultz, the “violence” that filled the Earth is
talking about a great war that took place before the Flood—a war that
God allowed because of the degeneration and gross wickedness of the
Neanderthals and other humans. This too fits with the archaeological
evidence that indicates that many of the Neanderthal sites that have been
uncovered show indications that cannibalism was common. Bones found at
Neanderthal cave dwellings often show the telltale signs of cut marks and
splitting which indicate that the Neanderthal were eating the marrow of
the bones. Another Neanderthal site in Germany offers more proof of the
violence. Thirty-three skulls were unearthed all huddled together in a
circle. Their owner’s heads had been cut off with a stone ax and buried
Eventually the violence and degradation became so intense that God
decided to destroy all humans except Noah, his three sons and their wives
in a worldwide Flood.
Is it fragments of this pre-Flood genetic code that have been
transferred down through the ages and generations that scientists are now
detecting in people today? Adam and Eve are common ancestors to all
Once again, science proves the Bible correct.
Nephilim - were they fallen angels??
Dan:- You probably remeber our descussion on
ufo's as to whether or
not the occupents were actually demo posessed
or simply Satan's Fallen
Angels. Now the links page which I have here
sugest the Nephilim were
infact Fallen Angels or perhaps I should say
that the Nephilim were
the result of cross-breeding of Humans and
Fallen angels and/or Demon
posessed humans from the line of Seth. So
which is true?
Here is a link that I think you will find very
> Hi Dan Darrell and Vern:-
I have an interesting links page here and it
also mentions authors of
a very "Far out" "Fringe"
"Persuasion" such as
Zachiriah Sitchin" author of "There were
Giants on the Earth in
>>> those Day
4:49 PM, john hext-fremlin wrote:
Darrell and Vern I think that it is indeed
>>> that the book of
>>> > Genesis might indeed be refuring to
>>> cross-breeding with
>>> > human women (Please see the article
published by my
>>> brother at
>>> > www.johnhextfremlin.com
by John Denton) thus
Dan :- I don't know what you think although you did
express the view that they were some kind of
"Patriarcle Men of Renow" and not demon
posessed" in other words they did something
people to get them
However what I would say to you is this:- That the
Genesis Text insists (and we should take that very seriously
indeed) that they were there "Before and also
I know that you say ufos are simply Governmen
coverups for testing
"Top secret weopens" &c so there
might be some conspiracy theories as
well. But why would they (if they occupents were
from the government )
would they want to abduct people? That is the ten
question if you like.
If abduction then I can ownly sugest that in
conclusion that some (But not all) are
Does not the Bermuda or "Devil's Triangle" say
there was a sea of dissapearing ships and particularly air planes . And what of
the Philadelphia Experiment. Some people have been teleported back in time
accoeding to what I have herd about this experiment. I'l have a look at those
two links you sent me tonight. John
Two excellent articles. The AIG one is most
Regarding UFOs Chuck Missler and other
authors who follow his view are ust plain wrong. I have done hundreds of
hours of research on the subject and his conclusions are based on a poor
understanding of modern day technology and demonology. He can't seem to
tell the difference. Vehicles are modern technology in almost all cases. Abductions
are a deceptive demonic experience in almost all cases and they do not involve
movement to another location but rather an in-situ demonic experience. Gates'
(AIG) research on the subject found that when people called on the name of Jesus
the experience stopped. It is not all that hard to tell the difference between
the demonic and the "black" technology in most cases. You can
draw a line right down through the middle in nearly every case.