Is carbon 14 dating system seriously flawed?

Introduction:

A speculative research paper examining current evidence available on Neanderthal man with comparison to references in early manuscripts of a Nephilim ancient race of half breed humans. Argument is presented that scientific evidence and facts currently available supports a proposal that Neanderthal man was in fact one and the same as the ancient warrior race of half breed humans referred to in some of the earliest Hebrew manuscripts as the Nephilim.

Neanderthal man has become an enigma to science once being hailed as the proof of the evolution of apes to modern man. He was considered to be the brutish ancestor link to man in the evolution chain, the intermediate stage between man and ape. Now! Neanderthal is recognised by scientists as a contemporary of modern man for a time living alongside humans possessing many human attributes. But amazingly with a LARGER brain than mans! Were they the Nephilim?

To address the question we first need to examine the current facts and information available on Neanderthal man.

In 1856 workers in the Neander Valley near Dusseldorf Germany uncovered a skull and bones. The skull was unlike anything seen before, having a flattened cranium with a heavy brow ridge above large eye sockets. Nearby, workers also uncovered an assortment of thick and heavily fossilized bones. In succeeding years many further specimens have been found, not only in the German Neander Valley, but in France, Italy, Iraq and Israel.

Controversy surrounded the interpretation of these fossils. Initially a German Anatomist Rudolf Virchow examined the first discovery and concluded they were Homo sapien with rickets, caused by a deficiency of vitamin D. He considered that the flattened head was caused by repeated powerful blows (his examination was done pre Darwinism 1859 ).

When more finds came to light with what also appeared to be rickets, it was considered far too much of a coincidence and for lack of any other explanation they became relegated to a sub-human category. Later the French palaeontologist Marcellin Boule, concluded Neanderthals walked stooped forward which fitted in with the then new current thinking of Darwin's evolutionary theory of the origin of man (these new assumptions were made post Darwinism 1859). For the next fifty years this created the popular image of an ape man intermediary to man. Science thought it had the conclusive evidence it badly needed showing the missing stage between ape and man

Over one hundred years after first being found Boule's skeleton was re-examined in 1957 and it was now determined that Neanderthals walked upright and that the stooped posture suggested by Boule's skeleton was created by arthritis. More evidence from various caves and digs has shown that Neanderthals wielded tools and weapons, wore ornaments, had cultural and religious rites, ceremoniously burying their dead.

The greatest enigma found with Neanderthal is their brain size, which is more than 13% larger than our own brain size. The average Neanderthal brain measured 1,500 millilitres in volume compared to less than 1,400 millilitres for the current world wide average of humans. This brain size allowed for large cerebral hemispheres. Neanderthals were intelligent thinkers. Yet they left almost no permanent record of their presumed intelligence or culture. Some say he could walk the streets today in a suit collar and tie and be unrecognised, well maybe in New York, but about as unrecognisable as a stocky body builder, would be a fairer reflection. Yet today study books continue to be full of illustrations of Neanderthals as subhuman ape men. Out of date TV documentaries go on wrongly depicting Neanderthals as the evolutionary ape man link.

Neanderthals were physically very strong and unquestionably tough, a physically impressive race. Males averaged about 1m 75 cm; females 1m 60 cm, Neanderthals were considerably stronger and tougher. Their joints, were larger; their bones thicker. The fossils indicate they were substantially more muscled including the children. Neanderthal fossils lack the predominant chin of humans and a last set of molars. They had well muscled chests, long bodies, with shorter legs. Some fossil specimens (not all), have hip sockets more splayed than modern humans. The size of the skull eye sockets would have carried very large eyeballs.

Through examining the attachment points at which muscle binds to their bones it has been illustrated that their calves and biceps were extremely well developed as well as their pectoral chest and back muscles. A Neanderthal, because of this greater muscle mass, would weigh some ten kilos more than a modern human of equivalent height. They were regular Mr Universes.

Neanderthals used fire for heating, cooking and manufacturing. They probably crafted leather and fur garments of various types. Had a relatively advanced tool and weapon making culture manufacturing, a large variety of finely edged, sophisticated flint tools and weapons. This industry is characterised by the many tool types found, including spear points, stone lances and wooden spears with fire hardened points. Neanderthals made these different types of implements, for both "military" and domestic use, it provides evidence of their ability to plan, think and scheme.

Almost certainly, the Neanderthal race possessed advanced language. Fossil remains indicate Neanderthal voice boxes containing the vocal cords were capable of making the same sounds as modern humans. As they lived alongside humans it is reasonable to conclude they spoke the same language or if not learned to speak it becoming bi-lingual.

In a cave in Slovenia Yugoslavia, archaeologists consider they have unearthed the world's oldest true musical instrument, a flute which appears to have been made by Neanderthals. Broken at both ends, the 12 cm long instrument is made out of the leg bone of a young bear still retaining its four finger holes. Apart from being considered the oldest musical instrument in the world, this flute's greatest significance lies in its association with Neanderthal man's ability to produce music, and make musical instruments. The Neanderthal race could have composed music, sung to it and possibly danced to it no differently than humans today. The ability to create music on a multiple note instrument reveals evidence of imagination and abstract thought. It would therefore be reasonable to conclude that these same qualities would have also been put to use in other skills such as reading and writing.

There is evidence indicating that Neanderthals possessed a sense of community spirit by performing ritual burials and caring for the old and sick. Remains of several physically impaired individuals have been uncovered. Some recovered skeletons display old, healed injuries suggesting their wounds or injuries were treated and cared for. In a cave in Iraq, archaeologists uncovered skeletons of a man, two women and an infant buried together in soil containing pollen of flowers. The flowers, being set there by survivors, strongly suggests that Neanderthals thought and cared for their dead.

Analysis of the sediment pollen concentrated in batches, implied that possible bunches of flowers had been placed on the grave. Closer examination of the pollen enabled scientists to identify many flowers that were present, all of which had some therapeutic properties. Were they part of an aromatic preparation, a kind of pot-pourri for the dead, or perfumed oils used in ointment preparations? If so an appreciation of the cosmetic appearance of flowers and perfumed fragrances existed, much the same as today with our embalming of the body with fragrances and the use of flowers at funerals. These flowers also testify to a warm climate and the abundant floral varieties availability at the time.

It is possible Neanderthals chose certain caves to use as burial 'tombs' this would account for the fact that so many of the remains of Neanderthals have been found buried in caves. This practice would be similar to more recent human cultures who in certain parts of the world used memorial tombs often carved out of the inside of a natural caves using a stone rolled in front of the entrance to seal shut the tomb cave.

Evidence of Neanderthal skeletons buried in excavated graves in the ground suggests concern over the concepts of life and death. Value being placed on the dead person, funerals being a part of the social and psychological practices for dealing with death.

Neanderthals show signs of being a social race in which the old and the injured were taken care of instead of simply left to die as with animals. Individuals of well advanced years, have been found which support the idea that they exercised "humanity", mental thought principles over physical actions. Religion is a characteristic of the human species. In order to have religion, one must be capable of abstract thought and reasoning. Without such abilities, the concepts of life and death or a God could not be imagined. It appears the Neanderthal race possessed some of these attributes.

Unlike humans however, there is evidence presented by the scientists that the male/female role interplay as practised by humans in family activity was not carried out by Neanderthals. There is no evidence of couples or family oriented activities among Neanderthals such as taking meals together. This stands out in contrast to their closeness in so many other ways to humans.

There is evidence that Neanderthals were cruel warriors and fighters suffering and inflicting battle wounds, mutilations, torture and maiming, they may also have practised cannibalism. In France archaeologists uncovered 2 fragments of leg bones and 3 arm bones. Some scientists believe that these bones show signs of being fractured while still fresh. Another Neanderthal site containing human bone fragments shows signs of cuts and burns. The presence of burns on the bones is significant since no animal, other than humans, make deliberate use of fire in food preparation. These burnt and intentionally broken human bones have been interpreted as being evidence of some form of cannibalism, Neanderthals eating humans. They could equally be evidence of torture and or mutilation by dismemberment as has often been the case within certain human cultures who engage in cruel battle blood lust.

Researchers working in caves in Israel have unearthed skeletons of both Neanderthals and modern humans. These Neanderthal remains have been dated back some 60,000 years the accompanying "modern" humans skeletons back 92,000 years.

If the relationship of the dates are correct, modern type humans were around for a long time 'before' the Neanderthals appeared. After they did arrive on the scene "modern humans" appear to have coexisted with Neanderthals, sharing living areas together with them for some time, until they the Neanderthals went extinct. Although it appears that Neanderthals and modern humans were contemporary, inhabiting the same geographic areas and living areas Neanderthals did not interbreed with humans.

There is evidence that both 'types' exchanged ideas, at least in how to make tools. As a result, the idea that Homo Neanderthalensis directly evolved into Homo sapiens now seems wildly improbable.

According to present scientific thinking the fossil record of Neanderthals abruptly ends about 30,000 to 35,000 years ago. After this time only Homo Sapiens dominate the scene. Researchers say "Why Neanderthals suddenly went extinct is a topic of much question we may never know the true reason."

Radiocarbon analysis puts the later Neanderthal sites as being c 32,500 years old. So some 32,000 years ago Neanderthals disappeared completely; they simply vanished for no clear reason.

Today Neanderthal is classified as totally human - Homo sapien (humankind). What happened to them? Some scientist theorise that the Homo sapien race, 'us humans', killed off the Neanderthal race. So did a physically and mentally inferior race humans exterminate a physically and mentally superior race Neanderthals?? Logic dictates that if one race extinguished the other, the Neanderthal race with their superior strength and mental abilities should have exterminated the inferior human race!

This, of course, is the ultimate question, one that continues to divide and baffle experts, one that I shall endeavour to provide rational explanations for in this paper, incorporating all the above criteria.

The scientists as we have seen date the period of the Neanderthals to end c32,500 years ago. How do they arrive at this date? What scientific processes do they use to come to this conclusion? Surprising as it may seem it is all based on 'relative' methods "guess work". Ridiculous! Have a look at the facts, when we do we are faced with an unusual situation that exists no where else in the sciences.

The scientists have created a theoretic "geological column chart" on which the theory of evolution is hung. The most recent chart, now used in most museums and universities is that drawn up by Van Eysinga in 1975. This chart covers some 600 million years dividing time into periods, i.e.. Cretaceous 65 to 140 million year ago; Jurassic 140 to 195 million years ago etc. etc. This chart cannot be found in nature, it is theoretical, pieced together from various inter-related strata from all over the world. The vast time periods that have been allocated in the chart to facilitate the slow burying of fossils which formed the sedimentary rock layers cannot be proved or illustrated in any deposits being formed today it is all calculated and based on estimated guess work.

When a geologist has difficulty dating a rock stratum he requests the evolutionists opinion on the date of the fossils the rock contains, this then becomes its 'established' age date. When an evolutionist has difficulty dating a fossil he requests the geologists opinion on the age of the rock containing the fossil which then becomes its 'accepted' age date. A case of two theories being cross referenced in order to establish a so called fact??

Technically the carbon dating process is very accurate, making precise calculations according to a set formula. The clock itself works very well; like a stop watch with meticulously manufactured cogs and wheels. The problems come with the set up data fed into it, unless the calibrations are realistic and accurate the clock is no good. For example if an extremely accurate clock is set to the wrong time to start with, no matter how accurate it is, the time it shows will always be wrong. Or if a clock has its mechanism set to a 25 hour day calibration with accuracy down to one thousandth of a second, the time it shows will always be useless to its owner and the error accumulates day by day.

So how has the important Carbon dating clock been set for dating Neanderthal man? We shall examine the evidence which shows that this C14 dating process as it is presently calibrated is only good for accurately dating things back 2 - 3,000 years.

Scientists claim they have accurately calculated the age of Neanderthal bones by using this Radio Carbon C14 method. C14 is a type of carbon formed in the upper atmosphere when cosmic radiation particles bombard it. It forms radioactive carbon dioxide and from the atmosphere in minute quantities through photosynthesis passes into plants and animals and so is absorbed by all living things along the food chain. Natural carbon C12 is also present in all living things but in much greater quantity. The ratio of C12 to its minute cousin C14 is constant in all living things (today one C14 atom to one billion C12 atoms).

Scientists have accepted the assumption that C14 has been forming in the atmosphere constantly and continually for millions of years and that its build up which they calculate would have taken 30,000 years has reached its constant saturation point (the radiocarbon reservoir) and that as much C14 is now decaying as is being formed.  C14 absorbed into any living thing during its life time starts to decay once it dies. After death half the amount of C14 decays away to nitrogen gas in about 5,700 years. Half of the remaining half decays away in a further 5,700 years and so on until immeasurably small. Once a plant or animal dies it stops taking in C14 and starts to decay at the above rate while C12 stays the same.

            Calibrations given to the C14 clock:

   5,700 years after death 50% of C14 remains = 150 C14 counts per second.

    after 11,400 years  25% of C14  remains =   75 C14 counts per second.

   after 17,100 years 12.5% of C14 remains =  37.5 C14 counts per second.

   after 22,800 years 6.25% of C14 remains =  18.7 C14 counts per second.

   after 28,500 years 3.12% of C14 remains =   9.8 C14 counts per second.

   after 34,200 years 1.56% of C14 remains =   4.9 C14 counts per second.

This dating test relies entirely on knowing exactly what the original ratio mix of C14 to C12 is or was. The clock is only accurate if the ratio is the same today as when the organism lived and that it remained constant throughout its life and after its death, right up to the time of dating. If there had been less C14 in the atmosphere during its lifetime than today it would have absorbed less and the ratio would read much lower with a resulting lower count per second giving it a much older false reading.

Evolutionists believe that there has been no change in the ratio of C14 to C12 for millions of years. William Libby and his co-workers while developing the radiocarbon dating method in the 1940s believed that the amount of C14 in the world could not possibly have varied during the time that mankind had been on the Earth simply because the Earth is of an immense age, some 4,600 million years old so they believed. Because of this great age it was assumed that the 30,000 years transition period required for the atmosphere to have built up its ‘equilibrium value’ of C14 had already occurred and that the terrestrial radiocarbon reservoir had reached a steady state.

To test this assumption in Libby’s theory he made measurements of both the rate of formation and the rate of decay of radiocarbon. He found to his surprise a considerable discrepancy in his measurements; that apparently, radiocarbon was being created in the atmosphere somewhere around 25% faster than it was becoming extinct. Since this result to him was inexplicable he put it down to experimental error.

During the 1960s chemists repeated Libby’s experiments with refined techniques. They revealed that the discrepancy of Libby’s was not experimental error but did exist. Richard Longenfelter found 'There is strong indication, despite the large errors that the present natural production rate exceeds the natural decay rate by as much as 25%'.

Other researchers have since confirmed this finding including Hans Suess, of the University of Southern California in the Journal of Geophysical Research and V R Switzer writing in Science.

Professor Melvin Cook Professor of Metallurgy at Utah University reviewed the data of Suess and Lingenfelter and reached the conclusion that the present rate of formation of carbon 14 is 18.4 atoms per gram per minute and the rate of decay 13.3 atoms per gram per minute, a ratio indicating that formation exceeds decay by some 38 per cent.

Cook went one step further by taking the latest measured figures on radiocarbon formation and decay. He calculated them back to the point at which there would have been zero radiocarbon. In so doing he is in effect using the radiocarbon technique to date the Earths own atmosphere. His resulting calculations showed that the composition of the present atmosphere is only around 10,000 years old!

Many researchers have shown that the C14 in the atmosphere is still increasing at between 25 to 38% more than is at present decaying. This indicates that the atmosphere, because it has not yet reached saturation with C14, (saturation point is reached when the amount decaying is the same as that being formed) is either still building up and is therefore much younger than originally considered (i.e. Cooks 10,000 years), or at some earlier stage the atmosphere was inhibited from the present rate of cosmic particle bombardment. This would mean that the build up of C14 to reach saturation equilibrium would take longer than the estimated 30,000 years which would only be applicable if the atmosphere was as it is today.

When we calculate back the equation to zero point of C14 in the atmosphere using this increasing 25-38% present 'greater build up of decay ratio' in the atmosphere, we get a starting date for the C14 build up process in the atmosphere by cosmic ray bombardment of only c10,000 years ago. This would have the effect of drastically reducing the amount of C14 that was present in the atmosphere and thereby reduce the amount absorbed by living organisms during their life times. When reading these reduced amounts it would create an artificially, much older dying date when using the present wrongly calibrated C14 clock setting.

Scientists calculate Neanderthal disappeared some 32,500 years ago according to present dating by C14, when applying the assumption that C14 saturation has already been achieved. To arrive at their date of 32,500 years ago the C14 reading in the Neanderthal bones would have been c 2% of original ratio, achieved by a C14 clock count reading of c 6 counts per second.  

If we now rework this date using the 2% 6 counts per second calculation but from a short 10,000 year period of C14 build up. Then a Neanderthal who had died say 4,400 years ago would have absorbed C14 from the atmosphere that had only been building up for 5,600 years. Then at death the Neanderthal would only have absorbed 18.67% of the scientists anticipated 100% saturation amount of C14.

If absorption into the atmosphere started 10,000 years ago then 4,400 years ago absorption would have been in operation for 5,600 years, if saturation takes 30,000 years then 5,600 years would be 18.67% of 30,000 years. This would give a false calculation for the year of his death showing erroneously that he had been dead for 14,286 years at the time he died.

It is ridiculous to think that the atmosphere of the Earth is only 10,000 years old as the science evidence suggests. Agreed, but the truth can often more incredible than fiction. There is evidence that we shall be considering that although the atmosphere is older than 10,000 years the absorption of C14 at its present rate has possibly only been going on for the last 4,400 years. The C14 penetration and absorption into our atmosphere was inhibited prior to this time and that when the cosmic ray protection ended the Earth's climate also changed radically.

True science reacts to evidence with the ability to change its conclusions. But some 'sciences' have become dogmatic and respond in exactly the opposite way.  Lets consider the evidence.

Is it possible that the evidence uncovered about Neanderthals should be applied to the Nephilim race? We need to explain the following 16 characteristics associated with Neanderthals.

1. Had brains as large if not larger than humans.
2. Well muscled and developed physiques.
3. Distinctive characteristics from humans.
4. Evidence that humans lived before the Neanderthals arrived.
5. Humans & Neanderthals coexisted for a period sharing living space.
6. Neanderthals were skilled in tool and weapon making.
7. They were a battle scarred warrior race.
8. Neanderthals were skilled in language, and literacy.
9. They were cultured in music and musical instrument making.
10. Neanderthals had a general culture of their own similar to humans.
11. They practised burial of the dead and religious rituals.
12. Possibly possessed skills in apothecary and, aromatherapy.
13. Neanderthals lived in warm temperate climate's.
14. They had possible hybrid characteristics.
15. Corrected dating places them coexisting with humans 4,400 years ago.
16. Neanderthals were exterminated suddenly while humans continued.

The ancient Hebrew manuscripts refer to a time some 4,500 years ago, before the Egyptian civilisation, when highly intelligent life forces from outside our universe were aware that the human race was multiplying on this planet. They turned their attention to earth with the intention of controlling and colonising it. The human race at that time had reached a possible population of some 35 million * (see foot note 1 at end of paper). For certain calculated reasons they took the opportunity to move in on the Human estate with the objective of usurping it and bringing it under their control and domination.

Possessing a high level of scientific knowledge, coming from a race millions of years older than the fairly new human race, they understood precisely how the DNA functioned in the human format. Engineering a transformation of their own makeup to assimilate the human form they took on physical bodies fashioned on their acute knowledge of the human DNA structure and cellular make up. Possibly emphasising and enhancing in the process physical power and size, making themselves extremely impressive specimens * (see foot note 2 for manuscript references at end of paper).

There is no information in the manuscripts as to how many went through this metamorphic change but possibly some thousands participated. They took pleasure in the power and control they could exercise  over the natural human population. Cohabiting with the human women, selecting the best for themselves without restriction probably meeting little objection from husbands or other human males on account of their impressive physical dominance.

Once women had become impregnated, inseminated with their engineered semen they became pregnant giving birth to children who were a hybrid half caste race known as Nephilim. It is likely that these hybrid individuals were sterile and did not breed.

To illustrate by the existing natural laws, a Hybrid, strictly defined, is an offspring that is a cross between different species usually producing sterile hybrids; the male mule is the sterile offspring of a female horse and a male donkey. It is used in many parts of the world as a beast of burden because of its much greater body strength than its parents. It seems to excel both its parents in muscular endurance, surefootedness, and length of life. The hinny is the sterile hybrid offspring of the female donkey and the male horse.

Hybrids often have what is called hybrid vigour; they tend to be larger, faster growing, and healthier than their parents. Thus, mules are bred for their strength, superior to that of either parent. Ornamental plants are bred for their larger flowers; nearly all corn and tomatoes grown today are hybrids that bear much larger fruit than their parental stock.

How many of these highbred half caste humans were born is hard to say but the records inform us that these transformed humanoid visitors continued taking women and impregnating them for at least 120 years (see foot note 2 vs 3 at end of paper ). If there were 'say' 5,000 of them and they continued fathering children by means of various human women at the rate of 'say' one a month over a period of 100 years they could have accumulated a hybrid Nephilim race numbering some 6 million compared to a population of humans  increased to approximately 135 million (see foot note 2 vs 2 at end of paper).

This possible 6 million strong Nephilim race could form a veritable army by which their fathers could hold influence and control over a human population of 135 million. This period of human history became filled with violence and bloodshed. The entire human race was affected by this environment of terror.

It is the writers conviction that this hybrid half breed race referred to as the Nephilim were in fact one and the same as the Neanderthal race. The characteristics of Nephilim fit the scientists descriptions of the Neanderthal "a physically very strong, tough impressive race with larger joints, thicker bones, well muscled chests, long bodies, and shorter legs weighing approximately twenty pounds more than a modern human of equivalent height, regular Mr Universes." It also explains why their brain size and cerebral hemispheres were as large if not larger than humans.

The evidence supports a correction of the calibration of C14 dating clock after readjusting it allowing for the delayed carbon 14 build up readings,  doing this brings both Nephilim and Neanderthals into the same time frame some 4,400 years ago.

Scientists make guesses as to what caused the extinction of the Neanderthal race but the ancient records tell us what happened to cause the extinction of the Nephilim race, a massive deluvion flood, exterminating the entire race. The manuscripts shed further light on how this deluge occurred and how it would have dramatically changed the C14 build up in the atmosphere, fitting the scientific calculations on the subject of atmospheric saturation of C14 (see foot note 2 vs 7-17 at end of paper).

These ancient manuscripts refer back to a time when a water vapour, screen layer was suspended above the earth's atmosphere, possibly held in place by the counter balancing effects of centrifugal, magnetic and gravitational forces (see foot note 3 at end of paper). Saturn today, has suspended around it atmospheric rings, although very different in composition to that which would have circled the earth. The earth's vapour layer would have had to have been much wider than Saturn's rings, roofing over the earth's atmosphere, thicker over the equator, tapering down towards the poles, forming a global atmospheric climate controlling mechanism.

This mechanism would have had the effect of dissipating the thermal heat rays of the sun more evenly over the surface of the planet. Protecting the equator regions from the intense suns overheating as experienced today and dispersing this heat out toward the polar regions, making for a more even temperate climate throughout the entire earth's surface. This would explain evidence found of temperate vegetation and animals living close to the polar regions and why warm climate animals living in these arctic areas were suddenly destroyed and preserved in ice. Desert areas of the earth today show evidence that during the earlier chapters of mans history there was abundant water supplies and lush vegetation throughout the year, the very same temperate climate that the Neanderthal lived in.

Could this also explain the dilemma some archaeologists have when they find evidence that the Great Sphinx of Egypt shows signs of exposure to rainfall weathering over a long period. For the last 4,000 years there has been very little if any rainfall in Egypt; has the earth's climate changed radically by the removal of this water suspension canopy? Were the three Giza pyramids and Sphinx built pre deluvion flood?

This protective outer layer surrounding the earth's atmosphere dissipated the warmth around the earth similar to the effect of a green house roof. Just as the panes of glass block the suns harmful radiation rays entering the green house. You will never get a suntan sitting inside a glass green house on a sunny day. So to the water vapour/ice crystal screening layer above the atmosphere would have protected the earth from harmful cosmic ray bombardment, blocking out the C14 and eliminating absorption though photosynthesis. Today without the canopy we are unprotected from the constant bombardment of these rays and so are subject to the effects of premature ageing. Science is now linking the bombardment of these radiation rays to cell and DNA breakdown as part of the human ageing process.

This water vapour/ice crystal screen would have protected life from harmful exposure to direct cosmic radiation rays from the sun, preventing the infiltration of radio carbon C14. As explained above this would account for the atmosphere still building up its levels of C14 not yet having reached saturation point, the estimated take of 30,000 years build up would be way out, with a protection barrier screen the rate of build up would have been far slower and spread over a much longer period.  With a starting point for the present rate of build up of C14 only some 5,000 years ago with an atmosphere minas its protective canopy there would yet be a further 25,000 years to go before saturation is reached.

This would have the effect of causing all carbon dates greater than 4,500 years to be thrown out of the window as the clock on which all these dates have been calculated has been set at a wrong starting time wrongly assuming saturation in the atmosphere was reached millions of years ago, whereas the evidence dictates that it still has not been accomplished.

As already discussed, according to the manuscripts, because of the situation of interbreeding between humans and extra terrestrial races (spirit beings) the earth had acquired a fearsome, hybrid race of Neanderthals (Nephilim). The situation of crossbreeding the Spirit and Human races caused violence and bloodshed between humans and the hybrid Nephilim off spring this filled the inhabited earth and needed to be dealt with. This intolerable situation had to be removed, wiped out completely or otherwise civilisation as we know it today would not have been able to survive and continue. According to the Greek manuscripts (see foot note 3 Greek Codex Sanaticus at end of paper) the suspended water vapour layer provided the means to do this. 

At a pre determined date the suspended layer was broken up, the manuscripts according to chronological calculations indicate this to have been almost 4,400 years ago. The fall of the deluge waters came from the breaking-up of this suspended water canopy. Possibly the balancing centrifugal, magnetic and gravitational forces holding it in position were adjusted in some way.

Scientists acknowledge that the earth's magnetic force fields have at certain times reversed themselves. Surveys of palaemagnetism, the study of lava rocks which contain iron particles, show when these rocks were cooling and solidifying from a liquid state the iron particles would line up in line with the direction of the earth's magnetic field leaving behind a record of the direction of the magnetic field at the time. These surveys have revealed that the earth's magnetic field has reversed on more than one occasion. Did a reversing of the magnetic field provide the trigger mechanism setting off a controlled reaction that lead to pulling down of the water vapour layer?

The billions upon billions of tons of water vapour would have been drawn down mainly toward the poles by gravitational and centrifugal forces, condensing vapour into water and water into ice accompanied by high velocity winds, almost overnight causing major dramatic changes to the earth's former temperate climate.

The build up of great pressures of water and ice falling onto the polar regions would have forced it in glacier form to spread rapidly out over the surfaces of the globe toward the equators, gouging out valleys under the rapid movement of mountains of ice, glaciers bulldozed along under massive back pressure everything in their paths would have been destroyed. With the continual falling of this water and ice for 40 days (see foot note 4) at both poles more and more ice built up creating a massive rapid build up of pressure until its sheer weight cracked the earth's mantle buckling it and breaking it up into the 'tectonic plate' continental land masses we now have. These great continental land mass plates, crushed against one another forcing up mountain ranges while the weight of the massive ice glaciers along with billions of tons of additional water forced down great surface depressions allowing the water to later settle into these new ocean basins that we have today.

How does the evidence fit with this? Did the deluvion mechanism provide the criteria that resulted in the formation of the worlds continental plates?

It certainly could have provided the energy to create the tremendous forces needed to tear apart and crack up the earth's crust. It could also have provided the on going energy to drive these cracked continental plates apart in some places, over riding neighbouring plates in others compressing and forcing plate edges against one another with such force as to drive up and form the world's great mountain ranges that then come into existence.

The hypothesis that the crust of the earth could have been cracked up into the continental plates by a thickening of the earth's polar ice caps was put forward by Hapgood and Campbell in 1958, in their publication "Earth's Shifting Crust".

Professor Melvin Cook took this theory and modelled it. He started with a situation where the earth's mantel was more or less fairly uniformly covered with crust from pole to pole. By creating a build up of ice at the poles he finally cracked the crust, the fracture lines determined by the pressures being exerted from the opposing polar forces. These pressures on the earth's crust can be likened to the effect on the shell of a hard boiled egg being squeezed in a vice from both ends. When the earth's crust fractured it would have snapped rapidly and violently and like the pieces of the egg shell, quickly separated in some places, but in others forced up against one another.

Professor Cook believes the ancient Arctic ice cap a mass of some 100 million tons disappeared suddenly about 10,000 years ago. To explain this he says it would be necessary for the ice to have dissipated catastrophically. He concludes the evidence proves the earth's crust was rapidly forced up into the great mountain ranges at about the same time masses of ice and snow were released forming the present oceans.

Much evidence supports an earth not so long ago containing much less water on its surface and far more dry land:

1. Vast masses of terrestrial animal remains have been found thousands of meters deep in the oceans, evidence that the land was once above sea level.

2. Marine animal remains including whale skeletons bear evidence of sudden extinction having been found hundreds of meters above sea level, evidence of some phenomena causing the water to suddenly and dramatically to raise above the original sea level.

3. Thousands of flat top islands over 1,000 meters high have been charted at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean. They are encrusted with coral revealing they at one time must have been at or near the surface.

4. The island of Great Britain was once linked to Europe by a connecting plateau now 20 meters below sea level, it was once all dry land, remains of forests, Animal, Human and Neanderthal bones have all been found on this plateau, evidence of a previously lower sea level.

5. The oceans and seas at present cover some 70% of the earth's surface. It has been calculated that if 20% of the earth's water was evaporated off some 50% more dry land would appear, with the re-emergence above sea level of much of the land that at one time was originally above the water. A suspended water vapour layer as described could have comfortably taken 20% of the waters .

The criteria associated with Neanderthals can equally be applied to Nephilim.

The contradicting and mysterious circumstances surrounding the Neanderthals can be explained by the Hebrew manuscript account which refers to an ancient hybrid race, the Nephilim. These manuscripts are among some of the oldest in the world, now collected together as part of the scriptures. The Neanderthal remains are very likely remains of Nephilim.

Foot note 1:

A conservative calculation for the population of the earth 4,500 years ago is 35 million. The chronology of the human race places the first human breeding couple c 6,000 years ago. Using the population increase doubling every 60 years then over a period of 1,500 years the population would have increased from 2 to 35 million. By the date of the deluge 4,380 years ago it could have increased to 135 million (figures are approximations).

References in the manuscript records from the Masoretic text as per the Codex Leningrad B 19A manuscript as presented in Kittels Biblia Hebraica.

Ref Gen 6 vs 1 "men started to increase in numbers on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them".

Ref vs 2 "then the sons (translated "Angels" codex Alexandrinus Gr 5th cent C. E British museum) of the (true) God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good looking: and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose". 

Ref vs 3 "After that Yahweh said: "My spirit shall not act toward man indefinitely in that he is also flesh. Accordingly his days shall amount to a hundred and twenty years." 

Ref vs 4 "The Nephilim (ancient Hebrew, han. Hephilim, Fellers or those who cause others to fall down) proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the (true) God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame".

Ref vs 5 "Consequently Yahweh saw that the badness of man was abundant in the earth and every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only bad all the time ( all the "day" ).

Ref vs 6 "And Yahweh felt regrets that he had made man in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart".

Ref vs 7 "Stating: "I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, from man to domestic animal, moving animals and flying creatures of the heavens, because I regret that I have made them."

Ref vs 11 "And the earth came to be ruined in the sight of the (true) God and the earth became filled with violence".

Ref vs 12 "So God saw the earth and look! It was ruined, because all flesh had ruined its way on the earth".

Ref vs 13 "After that God said to do Noah: "The end of all flesh has come before me, because the earth is full of violence as a result of them; and here I am bringing them to ruin together with the earth".

Ref vs 17 "As for me, here I am bringing the deluge ( heb,. ham.mabbul " the heavenly ocean" ) of waters upon the earth to bring to ruin all flesh in which the force of life is active (the active force [spirit] ) from under the heavens. Everything that is in the earth will expire".

Ref 1 Pet vs 18 ".. Christ died once for all time concerning sin ... he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the spirit". vs 19 "In this (state ) also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison," vs 20 "who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah's day....."

Evidence in the manuscript records from the Masoretic text as per the Codex Leningrad B 19A manuscript as presented in Kittels Biblia Hebraica.

Ref Gen 1 vs 6 "God commanded "Let an expanse (atmosphere) come to be between the waters, and let a dividing occur between the two waters."

Ref vs 7 "Then God proceeded to create the expanse (atmosphere) causing a dividing between the waters that should be under the expanse (atmosphere) and the waters that should be above the expanse (atmosphere)".

Ref vs 8 "And he called the expanse "Sky" (the atmosphere in which the birds fly see vs 20).

Ref 2 Pe 3 vs 5 "There used to be a Sky (Heavens or atmosphere) and a earth of old which stood out of water and in the middle of water suspended".

Ref 2 Pe 3 vs 6 "By means of this (suspended water) the inhabited world of that time was destroyed by being deluged with water".

Evidence in the manuscript records from the Masoretic text as per the Codex Leningrad B 19A manuscript as presented in Kittels Biblia Hebraica.

Ref Gen 7 vs 11 "... on this day all the springs of the vast water canopy was broken up and the windows of the heavens were opened".

Ref Gen 7 vs 12 "and the downpour upon the earth went on for forty days".

Other sources
Richard Milton, 'The Facts of Life shattering the Myth of Darwinism.
Melvin Cook, 'Prehistory and Earth Models'.
Hapgood, Charles & Campbell, James, Earth's Shifting Crust'.

Click to return to Main Title Index

Permission is granted to electronically copy and redistribute these files provided the copy right notice, URL site are retained as follows:

Copyright = John Denton. Bible Research & Investigation Co (bric)

URL web page address = http://www.bric.uk.com

The Relevance of Velikovsky

Our Reply:

Hi Damien I disaggree with you on Velekovskian catastrophism. I think
it is very relevant. I have also looked at your website and another
thing you say is that you do not believe in a worldwide flood.

But you believe that the earth will be destroyed by fire; so why not a
world wide flood and post flood rapid Ice age; which I believe was
coursed by an Ice Plannet fly By. It is so is it not that you believe
the key to the present is the “key to the Past” in uniformitarian
evolutionary thinking.

I’d also like to challenge you on your belief that Neanderthals were
not human. One writer has said (John Denton) that they were the
Neanderthal /Nephilim and there for decendents of Adam although be it
decultured. It is also myu belief that the Neanderthal/Formorei
(Caananites) built the village of Skara Brae contrary to evolutionary
uniformitarian thinking. They buried their dead with cerimony (And
this is absolutely a human emotion) and were thus post flood Ice Age.

John

Dear John

Where did you get the idea that I said that Neanderthals were not human? I believe that they were the biblical

giants – yes, human giants.

There is nothing in the Old Testament to suggest that planets were colliding at the time of the Flood; Exodus; Sennacherib.

My Flood paper gives ample reasons why I do not believe that the book of Genesis is describing a global Flood.

Regards

Damien Mackey.

Hi Damien yes that’s most interesting about Human Giants ie
Neanderthal/Nephilim. One of your writers has a most interesting
article on “Evidence for Palaeolithic Man” after Babel but dates it to
about the 20’000 BC Range thus alowing for a post flood Ice Age which
I would date to about 2191 BC on Ussher’s chronology. However he is of
opinion that the flood was global as I am. The loss of a water vapour
canopy and the opening of the fountains of the great deep would
account for a global flood and an ice age immediately afterwood. Do
you place the neanderthal as children of Cain as does HLH? John

Dear John

Yes, I agree with you that the Nephilim were the children of Cain, probably coming late, at about the time of Tubal-cain.

But there were giants both sides of the Flood. Neanderthals pre- and post- Flood. They are not just antediluvian.

Damien.

On 21 October 2010 20:36, john hext-fremlin <johnhextfremlin@googlemail.com> wrote:

Hi Damien most interesting and thanks for this. Thus if the flood be
dated on Ussher’s chronology on a young earth concept ; Then
Neanderthal/Nephilim 120 before the flood would be 2348 BC+120
yrs=2468 BC for Neanderthal /Nephilim. Dr Jack Cuozzo is of oppinion
that the Swanscombe specimen could well be pre-flood, It seems you’re
wright about this Damien and seems to prove both John Denton and Dr
Cuozzo correct and as you say both pre-flood and post flood Ice Age.
One of your writers put forward an interesting concept that Adam was
Palaeolithic and Cain Neolithic/Chalcolithic when he built the first
city (something allong the lines of Skara Brae built by Cichol
Gricenchos (Whom I have identified as Neanderthal/Formorei from
creation history and the ancient chroniclers) about 2189/2188 BC
contemporary with the founding of Egypt by Menes=Mizraem:- John Post
script:- Damien could I with your very kind permission publish this
email on my website as I believe this would be of particular interest
to my readers. Please note all my work is entirely volantry and thus
not a commercial enterprize and is just for the sake of research and
interest. Many thanks for your time and emails Damien :- All the Best
John

That is very good news, John.

Yes, please feel free to post anything of ours. I am sure that you will always provide the appropriate reference.

My best regards

Damien Mackey.

The Worlds in collision image above and material from Damien Mackey
is published with grateful thanks to Damien Mackey and
http://houseofgold.blog.com/

JXF and VC

 Neanderthal/Nephilim

>  

>> Hi Vern I know you are busy trying to finish your article on the

>> Skope's Fiasco; However there are certain things that keep coming out

>> of the "Wood Work" rather like "Skeletons in the Cuboard" at me which

>> need some answers.

>>  

>> Thus although my conclusions on "Chronology of "Neolithic Man"" Part

>> Two on my website have a start date for the Neolithic /Bronze/Iron

>> and Steel" Industries being contemporary for 2347 BC immediately

>> after the flood (No doubt that some might call Chalcolithic) (And as

>> you rightly say the caves were formed during the Genesis Flood &c)

>> There is the nagging question about Fallen Angels having married

>> human women from Cain's line andproducing "Half-Breed " Humans called Nephilim.

>>  

>> I would like tosugest that not all Neanderthal remains or "Swanscombe

>> " for that matter have been found in caves. Dr Jack Cuozzo reckons

>> that the Swanscombe people were very early even possibly preflood

>> because they come from waterlogged stratum.

>>  

>> I have here an interesting links page that you might care to look at

>> when you have a moment. I am also going to quiz Darrell White on this

>> enigma and it would be interesting to see what he says. The links

>> page is http://genesisflood.blog.com/2010/03/02/revised-flood-charts/

>>  

>> I also think he is infuring that the Genesis flood was not world wide

>> (Something which I find unacceptable). He also starts Adam as being

>> Palaeolithic. Thing is did Adam posess stone tools before the

>> invention of Bronze and Iron by Tubal Cain, and can Cain be

>> identified with the palaeolithic through degeneration more so than Adam.

>>  

>> There is one chronologist who places Neanderthal in 1500 BC ie Gunnar

>> Heinsohn who has a stone tool count where he places Neanderthal

>> arrives Europe...................1500 BC

>> Swanscombe...........................................2000 BC

>> Cromagnon arrives.................................1400 BC Bronze

>> Age...............................................900 BC Iron

>> Age....................................................600 BC

>>  

>> Please let me know exactly your thoughts on Neanderthal/Nephilim who

>> according to John Denton were there with humans exactly 120 years

>> before the flood and correrlate with the radio carbon 14 dates he has

>> given arround 4400 and 4500 years ago thus 2348 BC (Ussher's date for

>> the flood +120 years would date this event to exactly 2468 BC. John

Neanderthal/Nephilim

Damien MackeyJust one thing, John, that I have immediately picked up at your site is Velik...

Oct 14 (8 days ago)

Dear John

Yes, I agree with you that the Nephilim were the children of Cain, probably coming late, at about the time of Tubal-cain.

But there were giants both sides of the Flood. Neanderthals pre- and

post- Flood. They are not just antediluvian.

Damien

Hi Damien yes that's most interesting about Human Giants ie Neanderthal/Nephilim. One of your writers has a most interesting article on "Evidence for Palaeolithic Man" after Babel but dates it to about the 20'000 BC Range thus alowing for a post flood Ice Age which I would date to about 2191 BC on Ussher's chronology. However he is of oppinion that the flood was global as I am. The loss of a water vapour cannopy and the opening of the fountains of the great deep would account for a global flood and an ice age immediately afterwood. Do you place the neanderthal as children of Cain as does HLH? John

On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 12:31 AM, Damien Mackey

> Dear John

>  

> Where did you get the idea that I said that Neanderthals were not

> human? I believe that they were the biblical

 giants – yes, human giants.

 There is nothing in the Old Testament to suggest that planets were

 colliding at the time of the Flood; Exodus; Sennacherib.

> My Flood paper gives ample reasons why I do not believe that the book

> of Genesis is describing a global Flood.

>  

> Regards

>  

> Damien Mackey.

>  

> On 15 October 2010 04:13, john hext-fremlin

>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 12:03 AM, Damien Mackey

>> > Just one thing, John, that I have immediately picked up at your

>> > site is Velikovskian catastrophism. I have studied Velikovsky’s

>> > revised history in relation to his presumed catastrophism. Thanks

>> > to Velikovsky’s revision of Egypt’s 18th dynasty, we can now create

>> > a biblically-compatible history.

>> > But

>> > his revision needs to be seriously modified.

>> > I treat this in great detail in many articles, and especially a

>> > university thesis. For the latter, see

>> > http://ses.library.usyd.edu.au/handle/2123/5973

>> >

>> > Velikovsky’s supposed planetary catastrophism seems to be entirely

>> > irrelevant. There is nothing whatsoever in the Exodus narratives to

>> > suggest that Venus was involved.

>> > And the initial agent of the destruction of Sennacherib’s massive

>> > army was the Jewish heroine, Judith.

>> > See http://kinghezekiahofjudah2.blogspot.com/

>> > This then turned into a rout. No Mars planetary blast (Velikovsky),

>> > no mice (Herodotus). The mice were the Jews, referred to by the

>> > Assyrians as “mice”

>> > in the Book of Judith.

>> >

>> > (I have put up your comment and our reply as a post at

>> > http://houseofgold.blog.com)

>> >

>> > My best regards

>> > Damien Mackey

>> > (AMAIC).

Hi John,

1) no known date for Tubal Cain,

Prof. Edward Hull's Usherian estimated date for Tubal Cain's birth is about 3530 BC.  474 AM.

> Subject: Ussher's Date For Tubal Cain

> Hi Darrell I have been dabbling with a little antideluvian history.

> Could you please tell me the date of Tubal Cain on Ussher's timeline.

> I have visited an "Old Earth Ceation website" that places Adam

> supposedly 100,000 plus years BP (Before Present) but still hold with

> the unity of the human race and insist on Adam and Eve being the first

> Human pair and that Neanderthal Man was a decendent at the time of

> Babel. The site is http://www.wonderlylib.ibri.org/RR044/44paleo.htm

> John

Hi John,

1) no known date for Tubal Cain,

Prof. Edward Hull's Usherian estimated date for Tubal Cain's birth is about 3530 BC.  474 AM.

God Bless,

Darrell

2) You seem to have Damien MacKay's email address could I get it from you.  I have wanted to communicate with him for some time now.

God Bless,

Darrell

Hi Darrell yes it would be a pleasure. Damien very kindly gave me a posting at his website specially on my ideas of Plannet flybys and Velekovskien catastrophism.

Damien is an old earth creationist but upholds the unity of the human race from Adam and Eve as the first human pair.

Evidently there are some room for aggreement on some things and just as much again that we both respectfully aggree to dissagree. But at least Damien places the Palaeolithic industries as post Babel and also Neanderthals.

Many thanks for the date of Tubal Cain Darrell. Do you reckon that before Tubal Cain descovered how to make or smelt Brass and Iron that Adam Cain &c were using stone tools of neolithic type?

I have seen interesting arguments supporting this idea. You may have seen my brother's article on Neanderthal /Nephilim (Children of Cain) also published by my brother on my website as a speculative paper to add to the interest of the reader.

However Damien says about the Nephilim that they came late in the time of Tubal Cain and says they were both pre and post flood which I have dated 120 before the flood 2348 BC+120=2468 BC also if John Denton's identification of Neanderthal/Nephilim be correct.

Thus we have them in Northern Scotland in 2189 BC with the village of Skara Brae and arriving sometime in Northern Scotland in 2225 BC; Thus I have reason to believe that the gene of the cainites survived the flood whos decendents must have been the children of Ham or Cainanites.

What is also interesting is that Dr Cuozzo is of oppinion that the Swanscombe specimens predate the flood, Also of interest is Bill Cooper's article on "Miocene Man", Bill reckons they were also preflood owing to the state of the fossils being waterlogged. I'll go with your date of 3530 BC Darrell and send you an email with Damien's email address . He is a nice chap to comunicate with. Must go now and very good hunting John.

JHF and DM

 Dear Damien I have an estimated Ussherian date for Tubal cain am 474

 and 3530 BC and comes from Darrell White John

>> Dear John

>> That would not be far wrong, I suspect.

>> I myself tend to prefer Martin Anstey and his supporter, Philip

>> Mauro, for biblical accuracy, though.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2010 at 5:43 PM, john hext-fremlin  wrote:

> Most interesting Damien and many thanks for this. Interesting about

> the Formorei/Neanderthal sp groups is'nt it and  the founding of Skara

> Brae in 2189/2188 BC. I'm glad you have contact with Darrell; He has

> given me a lot of help with dates&c in my quest identifying the

> Neanderthals. Also your take on the Palaeolithic industries after

> Babel. John

MIOCENE MAN (1)

> Dear John

 If you read my article, "Just How 'Global' Was the Great Flood?

 (Genesis 6-9)", you will find that I have a Cain-ite archaeology

 (Eridu - Irad; Uruk = Unuk/Enoch; etc.) prior to the Ur Flood. And

 recently I have included Akalamdug and his era, as Lamech-ian.

 A global Flood would have been so immense, one would think (certainly

 Courville did), that it would have annihilated, swept away, or at least completely buried, this sort of archaeological evidence.

>> Are you proposing that a global Flood would not have done this?

 Damien Mackey.

> Dear Damien; on the face of the evidence it is difficult to say. Most

> young earth creationists say that a global flood would indeed have

> swept away most if not all of the evidence.

>  

> However what I am proposing is that we examine Bill Cooper's evidence

> which does indeed show evidence for antideluvien man and of course we

> should'nt either ignore the evidence of Dr Herman Hoe who also

> insisted that the flood was global along with Mr John Denton's paper

> "Neanderthal/Nephilim" along with Dr Jack Cuozzo who also thinks his

> Swanscombe finds are Pre-Flood maybe along with remains of Wooly

> Mammoth and dinosaurs.

>  

> On the face of it; the book of Genesis says the fountains of the great

> deep were opened (Underground water) and the "Windows of Heaven"

> (Water vapour cannopy) having in mind that before the flood the earth

> had a semitropicle climated which was protected by this cannopy from

> the "Ozone layer &c"

>  

> So what I propose is that there is indeed some archaeological evidense

> for antedeluvien archaeology plus also a world wide flood and indeed a

> rapid post flood Ice Age. For my money I don't see the harm in

> speculating on a stone age sequence from Adam to Tubal Cain even if

> the flood was Global. Problem is most (if not all young earth

> creationists ) reject this concept; but I don't.

>  

> I strongly recomend that the evidense from Guaderloop and Swanscombe

> (Gravel pit of the Thames) be examined and investigated. Thus in

> addition to your archaeological evidense we would thus have all the

> evidense we need so we need to be more open minded about all of this.

>  

> You your self have said that you believe there were Fire & Brimstone

> catastrophes ie meteors as even proposed by Velekovskey. I also

> believe a planatary fly by coming too close to earth could have broken

> up the water vapour canoppy and coursed the Flood.

>  

> Melvin Cook in his Book "Pre-History and Earth Models" proposes like

> Donals Wesley Pattern (The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch) that the

> flood and the Ice age were simultaneous so this gives some credibility

> to pre-flood Neanderthals having lived in a warm climate. Thus having

> dated my stone/Bronze/Iron and steel industries (Predynastic from 2347

> BC as per Ussher) to Dynastic Egypt 2189/2188 BC; I see no good reason

> why I should not insist that there was indeed a stoneage sequence from

> Adam to Tubal Cain (Also extra biblical evidence from Book of

> Jubilees) and press ahead with an extended industries chart for the

> antedeluvien era showing these sequences.

> I would start with Adam 4004 BC Palaeolithic/Neolithic to am 474 or

> 3530 BC for Ancient Bronze and Iron Industries with the stone age

> overlapping untill 2468 to 2348 BC. What would you reckon Damien.? I

> have been reading your revised flood charts and they are very

> interesting accept I'd put EB1 in Egypt at 2188 BC (Please go to my

> website www.johnhextfremlin.com ) and click the icon Neolithic Man

GF TO JXF

MIOCENE MAN PART 2

may or may not be a hoax in itself

but it's as well to make a note of it

and avoid the problem if it is for

real.

I can't see any problem in your

 concept of a culture sequence. Bronze was

 certainly forged in Tubal-cain's time

 but, by implication, not before, so

 what came before by way of tools? BUT

 remember that Adam was not a

hunter/gatherer but rather was a

 farmer/gardener whose job was to tend the

 Garden so he must have used some sorts

 of tools. Of course wood as well as

 stone could have been used in this

 context and the metal additions were

 simply improvements.

 Part Two. Menes is Misraem. John

 As for the warning about this hoax

 whatever it is ; I'll certainly

 take note of it, As for a stone age

 sequence from Adam to Tubal cain

 (Estimated Ussherian date from Darrell

 circa 474 annomundi or 3530 BC)

 I find this indeed a very interesting

 concept.

 I have been dabbling with the antedeluvian

>> eara and "Flood Geology"

 with Damien Mackay who claime he has got

 an antedeluvien  archaeology;

 thus he backs my concept of a "stoneage

 sequence of cultures or

 industries from Adam to Tubal Cain. He is also of the oppinion that a

 worldwide flood as per Donovan

 Courville would have swept away anything

>> that went before it. But we

>> >>>> need to examine Bill Cooper's evidense on

 "Miocene Man", and Bill

 thinks  rhat the Guadeerloop human

>> trmains are Preflood.

>> >>>> Thus I will send you the email Damien sent

>> to me as he believes the Ur

>> >>>> Flood unearthed by Leonard Wooly was the

>> same as the

>> >>>> flood of Noah. This is a most interesting

>> study and is my priority at

>> >>>> the present moment Must go now God Bless

>> John

THE FOLLOWING PICTURES AND EMAIL EXCHANGE BETWEEN JXF and DAMIEN MACKAY IS TAKEN FROM http://houseofgold.blog.com/page/2/ , with acknowledgements to Damien Mackay. Reproduced with permission.

END OF EXTRACT FROM http://houseofgold.blog.com/page/2/

Pictures of "Neanderthal Lookalikes" from Damien Mackay's blog http://genesisflood.blog.com/

 

NEPHILIM "FALLEN ANGELS?"

Does not the Bermuda or "Devil's Triangle" say there was a sea of
dissapearing ships and particularly air planes . And what of the
Philadelphia Experiment. Some people have been teleported back in time
accoeding to what I have herd about this experiment. I'l have a look
at those two links you sent me tonight. John

On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 3:30 PM, john hext-fremlin


> On Mon, Dec 13, 2010 at 12:18 AM, Dan Janzenwrote:
>> http://www.therefinersfire.org/nephilim.htm
>>
>> http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/who-were-the-nephilim
>>
>> Two excellent articles. The AIG one is most thorough.
>>
>> Regarding UFOs Chuck Missler and other authors who follow his view are ust plain wrong. I have done hundreds of hours of research on the subject and his conclusions are based on a poor understanding of modern day technology and demonology. He can't seem to tell the difference. Vehicles are modern technology in almost all cases. Abductions are a deceptive demonic experience in almost all cases and they do not involve movement to another location but rather an in-situ demonic experience. Gates' (AIG) research on the subject found that when people called on the name of Jesus the experience stopped. It is not all that hard to tell the difference between the demonic and the "black" technology in most cases. You can draw a line right down through the middle in nearly every case.
>>
>> --- On Sun, 12/12/10, john hext-fremlin
>>> Subject: Re: The Nephilim:- "Were they Fallen Angels"
>
>>> Date: Sunday, December 12, 2010, 11:53 AM
>>> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 4:49 PM, john
>>> hext-fremlin
>>>
>>> > Darrell and Vern I think that it is indeed possible
>>> that the book of
>>> > Genesis might indeed be refuring to Fallen angels
>>> cross-breeding with
>>> > human women (Please see the article published by my
>>> brother at
>>> > www.johnhextfremlin.com by John Denton) thus
>>> "Neanderthal/Nephilim"?
>>> >
>>> > Dan :- I don't know what you think although you did
>>> express the view
>>> > that they were some kind of "Patriarcle Men of Renow"
>>> and not demon
>>> > posessed" in other words they did something for the
>>> people to get them
>>> > well known.
>>> >
>>> > However what I would say to you is this:- That the
>>> Genesis Text
>>> > insists (and we should take that very seriously
>>> indeed) that they were
>>> > there "Before and also After that"
>>> >
>>> > I know that you say ufos are simply Government
>>> coverups for testing
>>> > "Top secret weopens" &c so there might be some
>>> conspiracy theories as
>>> > well. But why would they (if they occupents were from
>>> the government )
>>> > would they want to abduct people? That is the ten
>>> million "Dolar"
>>> > question if you like.
>>> >
>>> > If abduction then I can ownly sugest that in
>>> conclusion that some (But
>>> > not all) are Satanic Vehicles. John
>>> >
>>> > On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 4:32 PM, john hext-fremlin
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>> >> On Sun, Dec 12, 2010 at 4:30 PM, john
>>> hext-fremlin
>>> >>
>>> >>> Hi Dan Darrell and Vern:-
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I have an interesting links page here and it
>>> also mentions authors of
>>> >>> a very "Far out" "Fringe" "Persuasion" such as
>>> Zachiriah Sitchin"
>>> >>> author of "There were Giants on the Earth in
>>> those Days".
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Dan:- You probably remeber our descussion on
>>> ufo's as to whether or
>>> >>> not the occupents were actually demo posessed
>>> or simply Satan's Fallen
>>> >>> Angels. Now the links page which I have here
>>> sugest the Nephilim were
>>> >>> infact Fallen Angels or perhaps I should say
>>> that the Nephilim were
>>> >>> the result of cross-breeding of Humans and
>>> Fallen angels and/or Demon
>>> >>> posessed humans from the line of Seth. So
>>> which is true?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Here is a link that I think you will find very
>>> interesting:-
>>> >>> http://www.askaword.com/?q=Nephilim&d=1s&1ibs- John
>>> >>>
>>> >>

Hi Damien thanks for that interesting email you sent me to-day. The
time then of Tubal Cain forging Bronze and Iron as you say between
2400 and 2500 BC . Would Genesis 6 verses one to four represent the
120 yrs before the flood?

Would therefore 2468 BC (If using Ussher which is easier for me ) be a
reasonable estimate? John


Damien MackeyYes, John. The Nephilim were on the earth before the Flood and also "afterwar...
Dec 6

john hext-fremlin- Hide quoted text - Reply ForwardDamien is not available to chat New window ...
Dec 6

Reply |john hext-fremlin to Damien
 

I will ammend that to 1656 annomundi and 2348 BC Damien Many thanks John



On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 10:22 PM, Damien Mackey
 wrote:
> Yes, John.
> The Nephilim were on the earth before the Flood and also "afterwards", as
> the text says.
>
> Your Flood date should be 1656 years from your date for the beginning of
> Adam. That is the proper time span.
>
> Damien.
 

The Birth Date of Cain and Abel and the Ancient Bronze and Iron Industry

Hi Darrell assuming that there was a short sequence of stone tool
>>>> cultures from Adam to the time of Tubal Cain ca annomundi 474 and 3530
>>>> BC I would briefly like to summerise:-
>>>>
>>>> 1/. At what date were Cain and Abel bourne approx,
>>>> 2/. When did Cain become a "vagabond and wanderer (Maybe
>>>> hunter-gatherer implies a degeneration from Neolithic to
>>>> Palaeolithic?)
>>>> 2/. At what Date did Cain build "Enoch City ? (Jericho? as Damien
>>>> seems to reckon although I might have this wrong)
>>>> 3/.Did Tubal Cain assuming at age 25 become an instructor and or
>>>> inventor of Brass and Iron given the approximate date that you gave me
>>>> for Tubal Cain's Birth 3530 BC?
>>>> 4/ Assuming then as with Cichol Gricenchos who colonised Scotland in
>>>> ca 2225 BC at age 25 and presumabably as you say a mature leader I am
>>>> thus conjecturing that as with Tubal Cain the same deduction might
>>>> well apply say 3530 BC -25yrs=3505 BC approximately for the invention
>>>> of Bronze and Iron by Tubal Cain?
>>>> 5/ If so then a period of not more than 500 plus years is what this
>>>> author and writer would allow for a brief "stone age" period from Adam
>>>> to Tubal Cain on a creation and biblical model and perhaps I hope in
>>>> line with the ancient chroniclers> John

>>> John,
>>>
>>> I really do not like speculation on pre-flood events without any
>>> historical records -
>>> I am very tired of the constant speculation in chronology after the
>>> flood and I have
>>> developed a very low tolerance for it.
>>>
>>> Assuming a stone age before Tubal Cain, which is not entirely
>>> unreasonable, we would
>>> have no artifacts to support it at all - as all were buried in
>>> thousand of feet of sediment.
>>> However, it seems some try to suggest that stone age artifacts we find
>>> are of that time.
>>> That is quite contradictory to YEC models.
>>>
>>> If we consider the pre-flood environment, what need would they have to
>>> tools, all they need
>>> they could pick and eat - no meat eating before the flood was the
>>> norm. Did Cain have
>>> to do more than just reap wild harvests? We do not know and have no
>>> evidence. Did Adam
>>> learn about metals from God? I think so - but Tubal Cain may have
>>> been the first to really
>>> expand the knowledge in this area. Was Cains city like the cities we
>>> have today - we assume
>>> so, but we have no knowledge - even Cain's group may not have had any
>>> need for tools but
>>> accepted them when discovered.
>>>
>>> So why speculate about what we have absolutely no way of verifying
>>> unless some of the pre
>>> flood records turn up to help us. The whole evolutionary stone age
>>> concept is non-sense in
>>> the first place as we have stated over and over.
>>>
>>> 1) As far as I know, we have no information on when Cain and Abel were
>>> born. The
>>> Book of Jubilee is the only source I know of which suggests a date. -
>>> Being a chronological
>>> model - I do not trust their chronological model and we only have one
>>> source - witness, thus
>>> it would only be speculative - but one source is better than none.
>>> All we know is that it
>>> must have been about 20 years (or more) before Seth was born in 130 AM.
>>>
>>> 2) Cain wandered shortly after he killed Abel - see 1) above.
>>> He did have a wife - a sister - thus we can assume he was over 20 years old.
>>>
>>> 2b) Jericho was founded after the flood - the World wide flood
>>> covered the whole
>>> area in sediment. Think it through. We have firm chronology for Cain
>>> and descendents.
>>> see book of Jubilee - that would be the only source that I know of
>>> which might mention it.
>>>
>>> 3) Professor Edward Hull estimated Tubal Cain's birth at that time.
>>> Since they lived a long
>>> time back then, TC may not have become interested in metal until
>>> latter in life, but it is
>>> also reasonable to speculate that he became interested as a child and
>>> followed through.
>>>
>>> 4) Since it is so speculative in itself, rounding to the nearest 100
>>> year point is reasonable.
>>> I would suggest rounding to 3500 BC.
>>>
>>> 5) To a YEC, speculating on a stone age for 500 years is
>>> contradictory. Maybe. It is not
>>> impossible, but we have very little reason to suspect so either. No
>>> artifacts, no documents.
>>> But it would fit well with Bible scholars who don't believe in a WW
>>> flood -- in facts fits quite
>>> nicely for them.
>>>
>>> Darrell

>> Hi Darrell that's most interesting information . Thus I will go by
>> your recomended timeline in putting this chart together although as
>> you rightly say it is of a speculative nature; and not entirely
>> unreasonable concept

> Hi Darrell is the date for the Nephilim 120 years before the flood ie
> 2468 BC. In doing the supplement for the industries chart I would like
> to ask you to confirm whether I have made the correct date of 2468. It
> does'nt matter about the rest of the supplement I just need your
> confirmation on my date. Thanks John

Hi John,

I know of no way to estimate a date for that.
Your assumption of 120 years before the Flood
would probably be the latest date - so better than
nothing, but I have never seen any reference that
would make it anything but a guess.

Darrell


Hi Darrell many thanks ; as it's better than nothing as you say I'll
use it on the pre-flood supplement. Thanks John
Post Script:- I'll be sending you the pdf attatchment that I prommised
you to-day on Roy Shultz's "Exploring Ancient History ; the first 2500
years". He has some interesting concepts of Abraham in Austria. John

The Apple Of God's Eye

Nephilim - were they fallen angels??

 Dan:- You probably remeber our descussion on

 ufo's as to whether or

 not the occupents were actually demo posessed

or simply Satan's Fallen

Angels. Now the links page which I have here

sugest the Nephilim were

infact Fallen Angels or perhaps I should say

that the Nephilim were

the result of cross-breeding of Humans and

Fallen angels and/or Demon

posessed humans from the line of Seth. So

which is true?

 Here is a link that I think you will find very

interesting:-

 http://www.askaword.com/?q=Nephilim&d=1s&1ibs- John

> Hi Dan Darrell and Vern:-

 I have an interesting links page here and it

also mentions authors of

 a very "Far out" "Fringe" "Persuasion" such as

 Zachiriah Sitchin" author of "There were Giants on the Earth in

>>> those Day

 4:49 PM, john hext-fremlin  wrote:

 Darrell and Vern I think that it is indeed possible

>>> that the book of

>>> > Genesis might indeed be refuring to Fallen angels

>>> cross-breeding with

>>> > human women (Please see the article published by my

>>> brother at

>>> > www.johnhextfremlin.com by John Denton) thus

>>> "Neanderthal/Nephilim"?

Dan :- I don't know what you think although you did

 express the view  that they were some kind of "Patriarcle Men of Renow" and not demon

 posessed" in other words they did something for the

people to get them

 well known.

However what I would say to you is this:- That the Genesis Text  insists (and we should take that very seriously

 indeed) that they were there "Before and also After that"

I know that you say ufos are simply Governmen  coverups for testing

 "Top secret weopens" &c so there might be some conspiracy theories as

 well. But why would they (if they occupents were from  the government )

 would they want to abduct people? That is the ten million "Dolar"

question if you like.

If abduction then I can ownly sugest that in

 conclusion that some (But  not all) are Satanic Vehicles.

John

Does not the Bermuda or "Devil's Triangle" say there was a sea of dissapearing ships and particularly air planes . And what of the Philadelphia Experiment. Some people have been teleported back in time accoeding to what I have herd about this experiment. I'l have a look at those two links you sent me tonight. John

 http://www.therefinersfire.org/nephilim.htm

 http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/who-were-the-nephlim

 Two excellent articles.  The AIG one is most thorough.

 Regarding UFOs  Chuck Missler and other authors who follow his view are ust plain wrong.  I have done hundreds of hours of research on the subject and his conclusions are based on a poor understanding of modern day technology and demonology.  He can't seem to tell the difference. Vehicles are modern technology in almost all cases.  Abductions are a deceptive demonic experience in almost all cases and they do not involve movement to another location but rather an in-situ demonic experience.  Gates' (AIG) research on the subject found that when people called on the name of Jesus the experience stopped. It is not all that hard to tell the difference between the demonic and the "black" technology in most cases.  You can draw a line right down through the middle in nearly every case.